Dan Bross of KUAC recently ran a story about the $35,000 Reward in the Fairbanks Four case. His radio piece included short interviews with the men and some great information. You can and should listen to that HERE.
Mr. Bross was also kind enough to pass along his unedited interviews so that you blog readers can hear more of what the boys had to say.
Here is his full conversation with Kevin Pease:
We have reached a very gratifying moment in this movement. In late November when the first post was written on this blog, the reward for new information in this case sat at $5,500. Through the generosity, work, and effort of the supporters who have been moved by this story to give, and through the ongoing support of Tanana Chiefs Conference, we officially announced today that the reward in this case has reached $35,000.00, which represents a 700% increase. That translates to $250.00 per day since we began. Thank you!! Your love, courage, faith, and determination to see right things in this world WILL free these men someday, and keep an untold many more from seeing the same terrible fate.
They key to exoneration for the Fairbanks Four through a new trial is for more people to come forward with information about the actual murderers. There are a multitude of reasons that informants remain quiet. Some have said they do not want to be snitches, and nearly all have said that they are afraid. It is not a hard position to relate to – anyone would be hesitant to double-cross a group of killers. But we believe that the reward money will do two things to encourage these people to step forward bravely – one, it will potentially provide them the financial means to move up in life, and out of a crowd of people who would view doing the right thing in this case as snitching. Secondly, we hope it shows that a whole lot of people are counting on them, and have their back when they do come forward.
The reward increase was announced today via press release, and featured on Alaska Public Radio. Coverage included an interview with Marvin, Eugene, George, and Kevin. We wish they had been able to use more of the their words, but time constraints kept the clips of them pretty short. We will post that interview as soon as it is available online.
In the meantime, share this reward information whenever and wherever you can! Through your work and through God’s grace it will reach the right person. Who knows? Perhaps your simple decision to bring this case up to a stranger at a bus stop, to tack a flyer to that cork board at work, to tell this story – any of those moments could be the ONE that this case turns on.
Thank you, every single one of you, for reading, speaking, donating, and acting. When life confronts us with an injustice the easiest and most common choice that human beings make is to do nothing. Yet, as we have quoted many times before, all that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to remain silent. Each of you is extraordinary in your choice to speak up, and each of you is having an impact. I want to tell you that this fight is nearly over. I want to tell you that all the days that lie ahead will be easy. I want to tell you that good has already prevailed. I want to name the day that you can gather together and welcome these men home, the day that racism is over, the day that the justice system is fully just. But I cannot, and this fight may last forever, which makes it all the more worth fighting. All that is required for GOOD to prevail in this world is for people like you to find their voice.
ANYONE that has information, big or small, whether you are ready to talk on the record or want to remain anonymous is asked to email Alaska Innocence at info@alaskainnocence.org or call them at (907) 279-0454.
Frank Dayton’s mugging was only one of the similar attacks that occurred the night John Hartman was killed. However, the beating and mugging of Frank Dayton is of incredible importance because of the part it played in the police theory of the murder and the part it played in trials.
In addition to being charged and convicted of the murder of John Hartman, the Fairbanks Four were also convicted of mugging Frank Dayton, primarily off the eyewitness testimony one man provided in exchange for leniency in the serious criminal charges he was facing. It was the only testimony that put the four together that night, or indicated that they were engaged in violent behavior of any kind. That testimony was made by Arlo Olson, and has since been recanted. We hope to post Arlo’s story, and are hoping that he will be able to tell it himself for us and keep with our focus on letting people speak for themselves. Either way, we will discuss Arlo Olsen’s role in this case at length very soon. For now, we will focus on Frank Dayton’s version of events. It is impossible to overstate how important Frank Dayton’s mugging became in the murder trial. In this post we will describe the mugging that Frank Dayton reported to the police and testified to in trial.
Frank was at the the wedding reception at the Eagle’s Hall along with hundreds of other guests. Sometime around 1am, Frank decided to walk a few block over to meet a friend. Much like Hartman, he was walking alone in the cold late night. He was soon assaulted in a disturbingly similar way.
Frank was in the 300 block of 1st Avenue when he heard a car rolling up behind him. He assumed that the car was slowed to a crawl so that it could pull into the parking lot he had just passed. When he turned around he saw the car. He described it as a four door light colored car (white, or a very light tan or gray). The assailants ran up to him and he was immediately tripped and knocked to the ground. His elbow, knees, and face smashed into the cold pavement. He made a movement to stand, but one of the attackers slammed their foot down on his right hand. Another stood over him. They kicked him in the side and back. As he lay with his face pressed into the pavement he saw the show standing on his hand – a white high top.
The attackers assaulted him primarily by kicking him while he was on the ground. They reached into his pocket and took the $20 he had. They then ran to their car and sped off, disappearing as quickly as they had appeared.
Frank was not able to describe his attackers, it had all happened fast and in the dark, and he was held face-down to the ground during the beating. He was able to see and remember the car well, which he described as a “good-sized” light four-door sedan. Frank even drew a picture of the car for the police, which is pictured above.
In the police theory, they surmised that the Fairbanks Four – Kevin, Eugene, Marvin, and George – had gone on a violent beating spree that night attacking people at random. Indeed, there is a distressing theme in the violence that occurred that night. Three others reported nearly identical attacks which you can read about HERE. In those attacks the eyewitnesses or victims also described a light four-door sedan as the car, but the others were able to provide a better description of their attackers, and across the board they ALL described four young African American men in that light car, getting victims to the ground, kicking them, and speeding away.
Frank Dayton was wearing a leather jacket than night. One that likely had the palm and fingerprints of his attackers on it – Frank offered it up to be tested, and the investigators declined to take it. There are a lot of opportunities lost in this case – Frank Dayton’s jacket was one of them, but much like Conan’s pager (read about that HERE), yet another opportunity to collect that evidence was passed up. It is a theme in the case that is disturbing to say the least.
After the beating, Frank Dayton returned to the Eagle’s Hall, where his sister in law Susan Paskavan called 911. The call is logged at 1:34am, roughly the same time that the assault on John Hartman ended.
Prosecution and police relied on a theory that the Fairbanks Four beat and mugged Frank Dayton, then drove the several blocks to 9th and Barnette and fatally beat John Hartman in a similar way. There are many holes in that theory, but here are some of the most important ones:
* Frank Dayton’s attackers drove a light full-sized four-door sedan, Marvin drove a bright blue two-door tiny car.
* None of the four were there. Read their timelines for more details (MARVIN, GEORGE, EUGENE, KEVIN).
* Marvin was at the Eagle’s Hall when Frank Dayton returned and 911 was called. Gary Edwin testified that he KNOWS Marvin was there at the time because as Gary was leaning over the injured Frank Dayton, Marvin approached him and said, “What happened?” Gary responded that he didn’t know and was trying to figure it out himself.
* None of the four were wearing or owned white high-tops. The shoes that the police collected from the men were listed as brown boots, black boots, and black Nike Air tennis shoes. NO white high-tops. Remember that George, Kevin, and Eugene were all arrested in the shoes they had worn. Marvin’s house was searched and all of his shoes were taken.
* Frank Dayton was Eugene Vent’s cousin. It seems unlikely that Eugene, a person with no history of violence, would attack anyone, but especially his own family. It also seems unlikely that Frank Dayton would not recognize his young relative. It also seems unlikely that Frank Dayton would not be able to identify the suspects as Native given his level of familiarity with a Koyukon Athabascan accent.
* Frank Dayton himself believes the Fairbanks Four are innocent, and KNOWS that they are not his attackers. He said this on the stand, and has said it for the last 14 years.
Despite all of this, the Four would eventually be tried for the mugging of Frank Dayton and the murder of John Hartman in one trial. Juror’s would later say that Arlo Olson’s testimony, which convinced them that the Fairbanks Four were guilty of mugging Frank Dayton, was one of the biggest factors in them finding the men guilty.
Kevin has spent many years in silence. In the early media reports in and in the press coverage throughout the trials Kevin was relentlessly attacked, more so than the others. The police pushed this media agenda, because in their theory they considered him the ringleader. It was amazing in a way to watch it unfold – to watch him remain quiet and outwardly calm while his world crumbled around him. Steady.
After his conviction, many people stood behind his claim of innocence, but none as strongly or courageously as his mom, the late Carol Pease. He is pictured with her here. It is hard to imagine the grief that Kevin has had to live with. He lost his father a short time before being wrongfully accused, and his mother shortly after his wrongful conviction, all as a very young person. Yet, amazingly, through all of this his faith remains strong.
In this post, Kevin tells his own story. Like with the other letters, the truth in his words is palpable. Painfully clear. Facts, documents, transcripts, legal opinions, and the like abound in this case, and they all back up the claim that these men are innocent. Still, nothing makes that statement as poignantly than the truth in their own words. Here they are:
PLEASE, if you or ANYONE you know has information about the case call, write, email or do anything you like, just do the right thing. The best person to bring new information and tips to is Bill Oberly at the Innocence Project in Anchorage – 907-279-0454. His email is info@alaskainnocence.org and tips can be made anonymously.
If you were involved in any way in this case, please consider coming forward today and submitting your OWN story. These pieces build a picture together, and each piece is important. Contact US on the Facebook page.
HATE, indeed, put these men in prison, and LOVE will set them free someday. YOUR LOVE, courage, and support, to be specific. So keep it coming!!! Sign the petition, join us on Facebook, and spread, spread, spread the word. We send these pages back to the boys, so feel free to add a comment for Kevin below.
We have, over and over, referred to the specific method of interrogation that was used on the Fairbanks Four AND on many alibi witnesses who were questioned. We have heard from these people that their interrogations or interviews were some of the worst experiences of their lives. Some, even a decade and more later, still suffer nightmares about the experience. These people have done a wonderful job describing how this interrogation technique feels. We want to also help you all understand how it works. And the best place to start is the very beginning, so bear with us for what is going to be a long, but very informative post.
From America’s earliest days as a country well into the 1940’s, suspects of crimes were by policy routinely interrogated with a method known as the “third degree.” Some highlights of this technique included violent beatings, holding heads under water, starvation, threatening to kill a suspect and their families, sleep deprivation, electrocution, and a slew of other nasty tactics that make water-boarding sound like a fun jaunt through a sprinkler on a sunny summer day. These tactics were the rule, not the exception, and officers were trained to use torture because it worked.
These methods produced many confessions, and sent many confessed murderers to their prison cells and graves. There is no question that the third degree was an effective way to get confessions. But by the 1930’s, scholars began to notice that many of these confessions were false. The public became increasingly critical as well and people began asking a lot of questions. When hundreds of people were beaten at rallies the press reports were not favorable. NAACP began an anti-lynching movement. A new era was on the horizon and suddenly the general public was not content with the status-quo. A civil rights movement was a-brewin’. This whole third degree thing was, after all, pretty outdated. Decades and decades old. It was time for a change, and it was clear that the third degree had to at least begin to die out with the 30’s. With no alternative available the third degree continued to be the standard through most of the 1930s.
By the 1940, the practice of physical torture in order to elicit confessions was rapidly falling out of favor. Several courts had found it to be unconstitutional, forcing the practice underground. Investigators tried beating people with rubber hoses so that there would be less bruising, but it was clear that a more lasting alternative was needed. Society (including most police officers), thankfully arrived at a point where most people were not too keen on confessions being beaten, starved, dunked, and cut out of suspects. No, it was time for something more civilized.
Enter John Reid – an Irish cop from Chicago with no background in psychology whatsoever. If the American law enforcement had not been so desperate for a less violent but effective form of interrogation, his psychology-based method could well have been laughed off. But sometimes timing is everything. Reid had a gift. He could, without beating someone, persuade them to confess. We will never know if Reid himself had a gift for obtaining true confessions, false confessions, or both, but we do know he got more than 5,000 of them during his career. He shared and taught his technique. Eventually, he published a book on interrogation – it came at the perfect moment in history, and it was rapidly adopted. In lieu of physical torture Reid’s book recommended something equally as effective but much less likely to leave visible marks: psychological torture!
The Reid Technique of Interrogation was simple, easy to learn, and it worked! It produced confessions! As a matter of fact it worked better than old-fashioned torture. So, police officers across the country and world began to use his 9-step process. By the time 1960’s passed the third degree had been all but replaced by the Reid Technique. The process works something like this:
The first order of business is to perform a non-accusatory interview, review the evidence, and be reasonably sure that the suspect is guilty of the crime. The 9 steps are supposed to be used on people who are GUILTY of a crime, so it is important to be reasonably sure that you are dealing with the perpetrator. So, how do investigators know they have the right guy? Basically, one of two ways. In the first scenario, they have mountains of evidence (eye-witnesses, fingerprints, found the guy at the murder scene covered in blood and holding a knife – that kind of thing). In the second scenario the officer determines that the person is guilty using their expertise in psychology. You know, the expertise they got in the book written by a guy with no background in psychology. Sadly, as with many of life’s crappy ideas, the Reid Technique of interrogation often fails before it even begins.
Because the investigator believes they can spot guilt just by looking at or interacting with a suspect (and in fact have been instructed that they can) these investigators rely on this super-power to be sure that they have the right guy. The good news? One person did do a study which concluded that investigators are better than the average joe-shmo at spotting guilt. The bad news? That guy would be John Reid. After he finished pretending to be a psychologist, he moved on to the illustrious position of pretend-scientist. The other bad news? Pretty much every other study done on the topic shows that police officers are no better than spotting a guilty person than the average citizen, and sometimes worse. But the problem is that unlike the average citizen they BELIEVE they have the right guy. And as soon as they are sure they have the guy, Reid interrogation process beings in earnest.
Once the investigator is sure he’s got the right suspect, he starts the nine step process. Here are the nine steps:
To give John Reid and his modern associates some credit, they recognize that this method produces confessions, and that it produces confessions from the innocent and guilty alike. So, they stress that investigators must not start in on a suspect until they are reasonably sure they are guilty. And really, that makes sense. Here is an interrogation method that will nearly always produce a confession, so if used on a guilty person, that is a good thing. But when it is used in the innocent, it is a recipe for disaster.
When this method is exposed and examined it seems – well, barbaric. Out of time. Like some brutal junk-science from the 40’s cooked up by an unqualified nut. And it seems that way because IT IS. The Reid Technique is crap. It is illegal in many places, considered controversial at best and criminal at worst by scholars, and the winds of society are already changing. Someday, probably someday soon, this will go the way of the third degree. The Reid technique will disappear into an embarrassing chapter of our history where it belongs, and we will progress.
In a world where it is very well established that false confessions happen, how can a person tell a false confession from a real confession? Once in possession of a confession, a well-trained investigator will take a look at the statements and make sure that they appear to be accurate. There are some tell-tale signs of a true confession:
1.) Physical Evidence Backs Up the Confession. Did that happen in this case? Read the physical evidence for yourself HERE.
2.) The Suspect Provides Details of the Crime. If you isolated the statements of the Fairbanks Four you would not know who had been assaulted, where they had been assaulted,what day they had been assaulted, why they had been assaulted, who else was there, when it had happened, or ANY other detail of the crime. Read their interrogations: George, Marvin, Eugene, Kevin. For most of George’s confession he thinks that Eugene is the person in ICU. Eugene thought that a fight had taken place in front of Alaska Motor Inn over a dime bag of weed and that he is being questioned about that. Their statements in isolation mean nothing.
3.) The Suspect Does 80% of the Talking. Read any of the interrogations. The investigator does more than 90% of the talking, the suspects less than 10%.
4.) Circumstantial Evidence Lines Up. For example, in most true-confession scenarios, an investigator will find that the accused has no alibi, or was seen acting suspiciously, or seen with their co-conspirators. They do not usually find that the suspects were miles and miles across town, attending a wedding reception, at a party, or spending the post-murder hours dancing away. See timelines for Kevin, Eugene, Marvin, and George to judge the circumstantial evidence for yourself.
5.) The Confession Reveals Motive. No one at any time has ever been able to connect the Fairbanks Four to the victim, to the victim’s whereabouts that night, or establish motive of any kind (beyond that the suspects were wild Natives).
SO……in the case of the Fairbanks Four, the use of the already shady Reid Technique went wrong before step one. Long before the investigators and the Fairbanks Four came into contact, a fundamental problem already existed in that the training the investigators received was flawed, and the the background of the four was poorly matched to the tactic.
But even with the stage set for disaster, if the investigators had adhered to the first step of the technique, things would have likely ended before they began. There was no evidence to indicate that the teenager in custody was tied to the crime in any way, let alone any evidence to make the investigator “reasonably sure” he was guilty. If the Reid technique of interrogation had been applied properly, these suspects would have been dismissed after the non-accusatory interview. Should they have been erroneously interrogated after the interview, their interrogations should have been ceased when investigators realized the boys in custody were underage, intoxicated, or had questionable memory due to intoxication. If that fail-safe failed, the interrogations should have been dismissed when they failed to meet even ONE of the litmus tests of an accurate confession. Yet…..they were not. This case serves as a scathing expose of the weaknesses of the antiquated and ill-founded interrogation method. The Reid Technique is the corrupt foundation on which many injustices are built.
We wish we could say that this interrogation tactic failed with horrific consequences only for the Fairbanks Four. Sadly, it has led to so many wrongful convictions that it would be impossible to enumerate them here. Perhaps one of the best examples is the case of the Norfolk Four which became the subject of a very well done PBS Frontline program called “The Confessions” which you can and should read about HERE.
Want to read more? Check out these articles and references. Criticism and evidence that debunks the validity of the Reid Interrogation Technique is so prolific that this is a miniscule sampling:
Click to access Arguments%20Against%20Use%20of%20the%20%20Reid%20Technique%20CLRv10i2.pdf
http://nymag.com/news/crimelaw/68715/
http://blog.law.northwestern.edu/bluhm/2006/10/reid_interrogat.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2003/01/27/interrogation030127.html
Shara David was fifteen years old in 1997. She spent the evening of October 10th and early morning hours of October 11th with Eugene Vent and Kevin Pease. Shortly after the police apprehended the four, they went to the Goebel residence where they interviewed Shara and others for a first time, and second time. These first interviews were not on tape. A last interview was taped. Shara describes these interviews as one of the worst experiences of her life.
The police used an interrogation technique, known as the Reid method, to interrogate the four suspects. This method is highly controversial, and illegal in many countries because it is so psychologically unraveling. Damaging. It is implicated in many, many false confessions. The method should really, if ever, only be used on suspects that interrogators know are guilty, and certainly not on youthful or intoxicated suspects. It should not have been used on the Fairbanks Four. But what is really heartbreaking and unique about the case of the Fairbanks Four is that this method was not just used on the four accused – it was used on those who came forward with stories that contradicted the police theory. It was used on kids that the police knew were innocent. On children, whose parents were not present. Shara was one of those kids.We should all remember that although we hear from people who are adults today, in 1997 many of them were just kids.
Shara cried through both interviews, has been haunted for years by her treatment and the experience of watching this wrongful conviction unfold. Her story is a reminder that so many tears are shed, and that so many people heartbroken in the pursuit of injustice. The experience changed her life and hurt her badly. It is brave, very brave, and admirable that she agreed to tell her story. Here it is:
On That Night
It was just a normal night. A fun night of going out and everything. If this wouldn’t have happened the memories of that night would be just a normal night of going out.
After all these years of trying to forget there are so many things I don’t remember. Mostly little details. Like what it was like at the party at Kevin’s house, and how it was, or who all was there. But I know it was me, Kevin Pease, Kevin Bradley, Shawna, and Eugene. And Joey, he drove.And the things I remember well, its like vivid.
When we were driving back, like toward the Eagle’s hall, I saw a clock. A digital sign clock, I guess it must have been on University and Giest. And I saw that clock, I saw the time. I was so sure. All these years later I don’t remember for sure what it said, two something maybe, but I know that in that first police interview I KNEW. I was sure. So insistent when the police first talked to me about the times. Its been years, all these years of trying to force myself to forget but there are some things you can’t get rid of. Like that clock. I know I saw the time, and when I told them that first time I know I was right.
We got back to the Eagles and it was late. Like, from the time that we first pulled up to the Eagle’s and then drove over to Conan’s and back, and were at the Eagle’s for a while. All of that could not have even taken an hour, from when we first pulled up to the Eagle’s to when Marvin gave me a ride. It was so fast.
Another memory that is so clear is that at the Eagle’s Eugene was standing at the door. He was so drunk that he was swaying and leaning on the door. He kept asking every woman he saw to dance with him and we were like clowning on him about it. He was so drunk and just asking everyone to dance, and we were, he was our friend, our boy ya know, but we were clowning on him about that. It was funny.
I got a ride out of there from Marvin. And he was sober. He was sober and everything was fine, normal. Him, his car. He dropped us off at Conan and Shawna Goebel’s house, Allen and I.
We were there for a while – I think probably not much more than an hour. And what I remember about Kevin coming over there was we heard his three wheeler pulling up. Allen and I were sitting on the couch. Kevin never really got that drunk, so it was kinda funny you know. He came in just blabbering and laughing I think about something, and kinda fell back. And we were like, what the hell are you doing driving?
And it was dark, really dark, and late. So he was kinda rolling around laughing, we were just, it was funny. And that used to get to me after the cops kept saying maybe he was crying, maybe….that used to get to me sometimes, but in reality it was planted. The cops just tried to drill things into your head, to like make you doubt your memories.
But I know I was with Eugene, I mean, the whole time, the whole night. Even without perfect times, I know it was from early, that whole time at Kevin’s party, and then at the Eagle’s. And I was with Kevin the whole night, too, except for when he was at his mom’s but after that he came to Conan and Shawna’s and passed out there. And so I have always known, I mean KNOWN, that they are innocent.
On Being Interviewed By The Police
They came I think it was that next day. The evening I think, and they talked to us. It was not an interview. It felt like an interrogation. I don’t even know how to describe it. It was scary, terrifying. I was crying and crying. I agreed to talk to them just to, you know because I should. You know this is how young I was, that it scared me to tell them that Kevin drove because I thought he would get a DUI. I told them, but that is how I guess naive I was that I thought like the worst trouble, that maybe I could get him in trouble for driving. But when we got to times and everything is when it turned so bad. I was just saying the truth, all I remembered about the night. Calling me a liar, the way they treated me, it was terrifying. I thought they would take me to jail, I thought that they would take me away. That there was nothing. Nothing. I can’t describe it.
The second interview then they were just trying to mess me up. To drill their times into my head, to make me unsure about everything. And it did. I was scared, and I thought that they were going to take me away. I was crying, and it was just bad.
On the Call From Kevin
“The police tried to make it like, they said that Kevin called and told us to lie. But didn’t. That wasn’t how the call was at all.
When Kevin called it was after the first time when Aaron Ring was there. He said how he had made a huge mistake when he lied, that he had told the police he was with his girlfriend all night, that he shouldn’t have. I did tell him that it was so scary, how bad it was they way the police were talking to us. He was, really, he was just reassuring to us. He told us to just stick to the truth, and he felt bad about the way, how the cops had been to. He said just keep your head up, tell the truth. He was always that kind of person, I don’t know, just watched out for you. And he said, tell the truth. He never, ever, never asked us to lie.”
On How the Experience Affected Her
“After they were arrested, I honestly thought they would get out. I knew they were innocent, so I honestly thought they would. I was young, all I thought was that justice and cops was there to bring real justice. Now, I understand that there is a lot of wrong in the world. It’s like, I thought the cops were there to protect us, so I thought they were there to do the right thing. That they would do the right thing. Learning that that is not true, it’s hard.
I have always known they were innocent. It changed me. It changed my life. It sucked so much until I forced myself to block it out…it was really hard on me at first. For a long time. Them going to jail and being innocent, me being interrogated and it was so terrifying, it as just a lot for me. Them calling me a liar and all that stuff. And just the fact KNOWING that your friends are innocent and you can’t do nothing about it.”
On Deciding to Come Forward Today
I always kept up on it, the case and articles, at first. For a long time I thought honestly they would get out. But eventually I had to let it go. So for a long time I just have blocked it out.
And then when you and Ricko emailed me, I kinda thought it over, I talked to my sister for a long time and I’ve thought and thought and I finally decided that this is a big issue in my life, and I really need to not sit here and do nothing.It was something so hard to remember, to deal with it, that I worked, I really worked at blocking it out. But eats at you. That’s why it’s so hard.
I dream about it. I used to dream about it ALL the time. I can’t even remember the details of the dreams, just like fear. Fear, nightmares. Especially from getting interrogated. I felt like I was being arrested. Nightmares because of the helplessness of it. I felt like I couldn’t do nothing, nothing to help. So I tried to forget.
I was fifteen then, and now I’m 30. I hated him. I hated Aaron Ring for a long time, a real long time. I don’t hate them anymore. I’m an adult, so I choose to believe that they were trying to do their jobs. I think they need some intensive training on how to interrogate people, that what they did to us, it should never be done to anyone. That they were the total wrong people to deal with the situation at all.
I wish I wouldn’t have been so young then. I wish I wouldn’t have been so scared. They scared me so bad, but I wish I had sat there and stuck up for the truth, been more persistent. Just not be scared. I wish I had sat there and stuck up for my friends better.
I am an adult now. I want to say that these men are innocent and I KNOW that. I was there, and that there is no way they did this crime. I was so scared back then that they were going to come take me and put me in jail. Now that I am older, I just want to say that I know for a fact that I saw that clock, that I was right, that I was with them that whole night. So it’s hard, but for me to sit here now as an adult and KNOW that this is just wrong, I have to speak up. This hurt me so much, it changed me. And it’s still hard, you know, to talk about. But I want to say that these guys, they are innocent.
We cannot applaud Shara enough for sharing her story. There are many people out there in our community who have information about who killed John Hartman – information that could change lives and heal wrongs. You can come forward completely anonymously by calling 907-279-0454, or if you wish to come forward and give your name, be eligible for the ever-growing reward for information in this case. If you OR ANYONE YOU KNOW has information about the Hartman case, please come forward.
If you want to see Shara in Eugene, Kevin, and Marvin’s timelines, she’s there!
Kevin Pease spent most of the night of October 10th and the early morning hours of October 11th with other teenagers at a house party. Much of the night is painfully ordinary – he of course could have had no idea as he went through his night that each moment would come under scrutiny. That as he climbed into a car stuffed to the brim with teenagers, laughing and enjoying the night, across town a boy had never met was being beaten to death. That he would come to be wrongfully convicted of that crime. That this night would become the one that divided his life into a before and after.
One of the kids he was with for much of the night was Eugene Vent, who of course would be accused as well. Below is a detailed timeline of his activities and movements, derived from police transcripts of interviews with others, and testimony from his trial.
10:00 pm – Kevin is with a group of kids who are all getting a ride from Christy Moses in a van who stop by Eugene’s house to pick him up. They are all headed out to a party at Kevin Bradley’s house off Chena Pump Road.
10:30 pm – The group arrives at the house party, where they play drinking games, listen to music, and hang out for the next several hours. One of the people there is Joey Shank, who doesn’t drink and is the designated driver that night.
1:30 am – A group of nine kids, including Joey Shank (sober driver), Kevin, Eugene, Shawna, Allen, Shara, Eddie, Nathan, and Dana pile into Kevin Bradley’s mother’s car and drive toward town. Kevin Bradley was ready to have the party end, and the group was hoping to meet Conan at the Eagle’s Hall. About this same time, across town, Hartman is attacked. Read his timeline HERE.
1:50 am – Joey Shank and his passengers arrive at the Eagle’s Hall. All of them, except for Shara and Nathan, get out of the car. Kevin, Eugene, and the rest stand outside on the porch talking with people who are outside. Only Dana goes inside, and looks for Conan (Everyone was! See the PAGING CONAN post). Joey estimated that they stayed for five minutes.
1:55 am – After Dana determines that Conan isn’t at the reception, the group all jumps back in the car. Eugene hopped in the front seat even though Kevin had called shotgun, so Kevin got Eugene to move and Kevin rode in the front, Eugene squeezed in with the rest in the back. They left to drive to Conan Goebel’s house.
2:05 am – The group arrives at the Goebel Residence, but Conan isn’t home. Shawna Goebel, Kevin Pease, Eddie, and Nathan get out at the Goebel house. Joey Shank drives the rest of his passengers (Eugene Vent, Shara, and Allen) back to the Eagle’s Hall. Kevin hangs out at the Goebel residence briefly
2:15 am – Kevin walks home.
2:50 am – Kevin is at home and gets in an argument with his mother, the late Carol Pease. He woke her up when he came in, she was angry, and the two argued. Kevin overturns some potted plants in anger. He then gets upset and leaves on a three-wheeler.
3:00 am – Carol calls the police to tell them that Kevin left on the three wheeler without permission. Of course she would have had no way to know that this call would in part cast suspicion her son’s way, and deeply regretted ever having made the call. In an interview in 2001, she sobbed while explaining to reporter Brian O’Donoghue how trivial the incident had been and how sincerely she blamed herself for her son later being framed in the Hartman case.
3:15 am – (approximately) Kevin arrives back to the Goebel residence, where settles to sleep on the floor. Conan, Shawna, Shara, and a handful of others confirm that Kevin arrived by three wheeler and spent the remainder of the night sleeping there at the house.
The testimony of a crowded house party and packed car, with the especially time-aware testimony of Joey Shank, place Kevin across town at a party and in a crowded car during the crucial times surrounding the assault of John Hartman. Like the others, Kevin is not linked to the crime by physical evidence of any kind, and has an abundance of abilis for the critical time.
In the flurry of press and speculation, the community of Fairbanks made these four young men into monsters in their minds, and were so blinded by the desire for closure that they did not consider the facts, and the gaping holes in the police theory. But dehumanizing these young men came first – perhaps if anyone had remembered that these young men were sons, brothers, friends, human beings, none of this could have ever happened. So, we will close with this picture of a young Kevin Pease as a reminder to all that these four accused were human. As a warning that this could have happened to anyone’s child, still can today. That Free the Fairbanks Four movement is a human rights movement at its core. Sign the petition to end this injustice here.
It’s amazing how much can be changed by a cage of concrete and barbed wire. This video covers some basic information about the Fairbanks Four – pass it along, it’s an easy way to tell this story to others!
This short video covers the most basic information about this case. This is a great thing to pass along, link to, post on Facebook, tweet, text, and spread far and wide. Many people who do not have the time to read the case files have three minutes to watch a video.
The soundtrack is I Shall Be Released as sung by Walter Trout and the Free Radicals
They say everything can be replaced
But every distance is not near
So I remember every face
Of every man who put me here
They say ev’ry man needs protection
They say ev’ry man must fall
Yet I swear I see my reflection
Some place so high above this wall
I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released
Standing next to me in this lonely crowd
Is a man who swears he’s not to blame
All day long I hear him shout so loud
Crying out that he was framed
I see my light come shining
From the west unto the east
Any day now, any day now
I shall be released
em mad, and the officer gives Conan a little speech about owning the streets:For the purposes of this transcription “G” will be Conan Goebel, and “O” will be officer. (transcript does not confirm that one of the officers is Aaron Ring. We are operating on a hunch when we assume that it was him)
Goebel: All right. So, I gotta go over this all over with you?
Officer: Yes, just where you were Friday.
G: 11:30, around 11:30, I got dropped off at, um – Over by the 21st Avenue at my cousin’s house (inaudible). And, uh…
O: Well, who dropped YOU off? I think that’s one of the questions.
G: Chrsty Moses and – I answered this.
O: I understand. That’s why I’m taking notes this time.
G: And Kevin Pease and um…
O: Okay.
G: Dropped me off
O: Was Eugene I the car at that time?
G: No.
O: Okay, 11:30?
G: Yeah, it was probably around 11 – 11:30.
O: 11 – 11:30, okay. What’s your cousin’s name again?
G: Samantha.
O: Samantha, okay. And how long did you stay there?
G: Till about 2:30, 2, I think.
O: Two? 2:30, okay.
G: Could have been (inaudible). ‘Cause I know I went to town for a while. It might have been earlier when they dropped me off the first time, or when they dropped me off the second time (inaudible).
O: What do you mean, first and second time?
G: Well, they dropped me off the first time and I stayed there for a while, and then they took off. Then it’s just those people right there, and then they came back, and, uh, I got – I went – I come to the van with them and we went and picked up Eugene and Nathan. They were at Eugene’s house. And then we drove back over there and then they dropped me off right there, but I told them when they were looking for a place to go I (inaudible) take the car back. So, I was like, well, you can drop me off at Sam’s house.
O: Well, see, okay. That’s – That is why he’s confused and why I’m a little confused. you got dropped off there the first time by who?
G: By just them people I said.
O: Okay, what time was that?
G: About 10:30.
O: It was those people that dropped you off
G: It was those – what time was that? The van (inaudible)
O: Tanya’s van? Okay.
Another Officer: And who was in this van with you?
G: Tanya, Christy Moses, Allen Sisto.
O: Okay, and they dropped you off at Sam’s and they went – you don’t – do you know where they went?
G: They went up to Kevin’s – Kevin Bradley’s.
O: Kevin Bradley.
G: There, yes. And then, they paged me, probably between 12:00 and 2:00 (inaudible) and they were (inaudible) it up there for a while, and I talked to them on the phone a few times and told them (inaudible) but I never (inaudible) so I called the next time around – I don’t know – 2, around 2:30
O: Well, what’s this 11:30 time that you gave me when you were dropped off there?
G: That’s when I got dropped off the second time.
O: Okay, tell me about that – when you got dropped off the second time at 11:30.
G: Well, after we picked up Nathan and Eugene, we went over – back over there, and I was like, they were going to find a place. Get me on the pager, and I’ll call (inaudible).
O: YOU didn’t go up to Kevin’s?
G: huh-uh
O: Okay.
G: And I, um, (inaudible) down there and they paged me and I talked to them on the phone. (inaudible) I think it was like probably around, uh, 2:30 is when I called again. I called at, um, it was probably like, (inaudible) left. And I was like, all right. And I asked, where did they go. and they went down to Eagles Hall to meet you. And I was (inaudible) so I hung up the…
O: You didn’t know they were going to go down to Eagles to meet you?
G: Nah-huh.
O: Okay.
G: Um, I think Eugene paged me before they leave. I don’t know who – he told Dana – he said we’re going to go meet Conan down at Eagles Hall, but I don’t – I didn’t call him back. (Inaudible)
O: Oh, I see
G: And, uh, he paged me 479-____.
O: (Inaudible)
G: And then, uh, walked down to Eagles Hall and, uh, it was about 3:00. (Inaudible) and um,
O: Who was there?
G: I ran into, uh, Eugene, Dana, um, George, Marvin, Harley, uh, all those – all those guys. And I was talking to them. And nothing seemed – uh, I mean I was talking to him right there and, uh, he even talked to me and George (inaudible) hadn’t seen him in a while, and there was NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM AT THE TIME (inaudible) and he was in a pretty good mood. And then, uh, so we was talking for a while, and um, and then, um, then everybody’s taking off – we were pretty faded at that time (inaudible). And I was like, well, um, (inaudible) I called for a taxi for Dana. And I, (inaudible) the taxi, (inaudible), Eagles, but they took too long because it was 3:30 when we finally got out of there, and, uh, Eagles – a red taxi rolled up and I went out there and I put here in that one and I sent her
home. And after that, me, Eugene and Edgar, we proceeded on foot downtown. And we walked downtown. And (inaudible) across the street from – over at Elbow Room, and kind of walked in there, and then we turned around and…
O: Who was in that bar?
G: Um…
O: Nobody YOU knew? Okay.
G: And, um, I walked (inaudible), and, then, uh, (inaudible) he didn’t last too long. He was pretty (inaudible). So then I – we walked over to Alaska Motor Inn. And chilled there for a while. And, uh, then, somebody said, (inaudible)
O: Did YOU see that?
G: I didn’t see (inaudible). Eugene (inaudible). But then I found out Eugene (inaudible) I talked to Harley
O: When did you hear about that? Because I don’t think you told me about that before.
G: Well, see, I walked back over to – walked back over to Shannon’s – Shannon Charlie’s – (Inaudible) and, uh, I just took off over there after (inaudible) and I walked – walked over – back over to 21st. That was at my cousin’s for a while.
O: What time did YOU get back over to 21st?
G: Probably around, uh, (inaudible). Then, uh, I was – I don’t know – it could have been the next morning or that night that I talked to Harley about mace down there and it was like Eugene – Eugene and George got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn. That’s what I thought happened. George got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn. And I was like, where’s he at? And they’re like, he got arrested. And then, after that, the next morning I heard about some kid getting beat up pretty bad and in a coma.
O: Where’d you hear about that, Conan?
G: Um, I think that was Louis. ‘Cause the cops (inaudible). And I was like – I was like, really. and they’re like (inaudible). We got in a fight with some other guy. And that’s what I thought happened.
O: That’s pretty weird because…
G: I don’t know how – I mean Eugene took off and he didn’t say nothing – there was nothing wrong with him – no blood.
O: Well, let me ask you about this. You know the Tritts – Cordell and Courtney and their sister – what’s their sister’s name? I’ve got their names written down. Any way, Cordell and Courtney and their sister. And you know… ?: (Inaudible)
O: Antonio Sisto. And you remember riding in the car with these guys?
G: On Friday?
O: Um, Saturday.
G: Mm
O: YOU remember talking to Antonio and Courtney?
G: (Inaudible)
O: And telling them about this guy that these guys beat down?
G: No, I didn’t tell them about (inaudible) I asked and they said (inaudible) fight or some…
O: Well, let me tell you. I talked to all these people and they had information about you talking about this guy that got beat down. And you know what they thought, by the way you were talking about it and all the details you had and everything – and this is Saturday where all the details came out. They thought you were there.
G: That I was there?
O: When this happened.
G: I read it in the paper. It was all in the paper. I told them – I told that Eugene, Marvin, Kevin, and George are accused of murder.
O: That wasn’t in the paper Saturday.
G: Well, it was in the paper or on the new then, because even, uh, Sammie Smith told me heard about it on the news – somebody got coma – in a coma.
O: What time was that you were (inaudible)?
G: Then it was probably close to – it was like 12:00 at night. And, I says to them (inaudible) ’cause I was calling and talking to (inaudible) and telling me they had all those guys in jail, and I was like – I don’t know – I don’t know (inaudible) he died or heard – at first I heard he was in a coma and then I heard he died. And I was telling (inaudible) that. And after that I got a ride with Courtney. And I was – I got in there and I was talking to Antonio, and he was asking me about (inaudible), and I was like, I don’t
know, man. I heard that they’re being accused for murder or something like that.
O: Well, I think Antonio knew all about it because I think we’d talked to him by then. And, uh, and – me and the Tritts are under the impression that you were there and saw this.
G: Well, I wasn’t even anywhere around them.
O: Or, they were under the impression maybe even a little more so that you were there and participated in this.
G: You say that’s what they say?
O: That’s the impression they got from you.
G: I don’t think so. I didn’t tell them anything like that.
O: But if you were there and saw what happened, that’s another thing.
G: I didn’t…
O: Now, you mentioned Jeremy. And I’ll talk about Jeremy for a minute. Because Jeremy asked youvabout it, okay? And you told him, geeze, I don’t know what was up – I was in a blackout.
G: I was in a blackout? I wasn’t blacked out.
O: I know, but that’s what you told Jeremy. ‘Cause he asked you why were in the fight with these guys and this thing, and you told him you were in a blackout. Well, you know I’m not lying to you ’cause you told Jeremy that. You know I’m not lying to you.
G: I don’t know nothing about that.
O: And Jeremy told us.
G: I seen – I recall…
O: ‘Cause he’s concerned about you and wanting to know if maybe you were just a witness to this happening or you were a participant.
G: I wasn’t a participant or a witness. I didn’t – I didn’t even get down there until…
O: Why’d YOU tell Jeremy you were in a blackout then?
G: I never told him I was in a blackout.
O: Well, I don’t think he made it up. He doesn’t have anything against you.
G: Well, I know he don’t have anything against me. There’s no reason, ’cause I never told him I was in a blackout.
O: You see how this all looks? The Tritts thinking – or thinking you’re talking like you were there and you participated. Jeremy’s asking you a couple of times about the fight you were in and you…
G: I wasn’t even in a fight. I didn’t tell him. I said, I don’t know what happened. They’re getting accused for beating somebody up.
O: You told him you didn’t know because you were in a blackout, okay?
G: I didn’t know because…
O: See, Conan, you’re not – we’re not arresting you here.
G: But I ain’t got nothing – I wasn’t even around then. I didn’t even hear what happened until like the next day about this kid being comatose…
O: We’re – we’re kind of concerned as to whether you want to be a witness or not, or whether you want to…
G: Hey, if I seen it, man, I would tell you guys what happened.
O: Well, let’s talk about that for a minute.
G: But the thing is, I wasn’t even in the neighborhood that it happened in. And that’s what I…
O: Were you in Marvin’s car at all?
G: Naw-huh. I never even noticed Marvin’s car that night. I never even rode in the car at all from Eagles
Hall.
O: Well, is there any reason why YOUR fingerprints would be in Marvin’s car?
G: Marvin’s car?
O: HIS blue car?
G: There’s no reason my fingerprints would be in there. (Inaudible) I mean, I’ve rode in there before, but I didn’t ride in there Friday night. I don’t even think they could be in there ’cause I haven’t rode in there for a while.
O: Okay, well, no reason – in the back seat area – you weren’t in the backseat area of that car?
G: (Inaudible)
O: Did YOU go to the Eagles Hall at all?
G: Yes.
O: How?
G: Walked.
O: What time did YOU leave?
G: Around 3:30.
O: 3:30? What time did you go to (inaudible)?
G: Around 3:00. I ran into Dana (inaudible).
O: Where were you? Dana had been looking for you.
G: I was at my cousin’s house (inaudible).
O: You were there that whole time? You didn’t leave there then?
G: No
O: All right.
G: (Inaudible) Went in. I talked to him on the phone a bunch of times.
O: Why didn’t you go to the Eagles Hall with (inaudible)
G: Because I didn’t know there was nothing going on down there.
O: (Inaudible)
G: (Inaudible) because I talked to them on the phone, and it was like come on, it’s like, we’re going to Eagles Hall, and then I found out (inaudible)
O: Were they – were they at Eagles Hall when you talked to Joey?
G: No, Joey was up at Kevin’s and he said they just left.
O: Oh, okay. Well, let me – let me clue YOU in there. Joey drove them to Eagles Hall.
G: Oh, really?
O: Oh really. Oh really. So, see, we’re having a problem here. ‘Cause Joey drove them. He borrowed Kevin’s car. Kevin didn’t want to go and Joey drove ’em.
G: Well, (inaudible) ’cause he went to Eagles Hall (inaudible) that’s why he called. ‘Cause I was like how long ago. He was like, not too long ago. They left when (inaudible)
O: And what time was that?
G: Uh, (inaudible) about (inaudible).
O: Uh-huh, but you’re telling me Joey was telling you this. And I’m telling you Joey drove.
G: I don’t know who drove. I just talked to Joey – I don’t remember what time it was. It was around 2:00, 2:30, somewhere around…
O: Well, maybe Joey had driven and come back?
G: (Inaudible) that’s what I (inaudible)
O: So maybe it was around 1:30 or earlier than that that HE drove them in, huh?
G: Huh
O: Maybe it was around 1:30 or earlier than that that he drove them in?
G: Could be, I don’t know. I didn’t talk to him ’till late.
O: Well, you told me that…
G: I don’t know. I don’t recall. I could check my pager was.
O: You got it?
G: No
O: You haven’t?
G: No, that was Friday. All those pages are erased. I don’t know (inaudible)
O: Well, see what I’m saying? I’m a little bit confused about what you’re telling me. Either Joey had already come and come back, which means it was quite – quite a while ago that you’d taken to the Eagles, because they got – he was –
G: I don’t remember the time, though, man, I mean…
O: Well, you might be right – you might be right. ‘Cause I think your sister saw him (inaudible) time, so you might be right. You might have talked to Joey and he’d already gone and come back.
G: I don’t, I don’t, don’t know. I talked to Joey Shank. I don’t know what time it was. It could a been around 2:30. But, then I remember I walked down there and…
O: Between 1:15 and 2:15, you were where?
G: I was over at Sam’s (inaudible).
O: And you were there from 11:30 until –
G: Probably about 11:30, 12:00. I remember Darrel Calling from the car and (inaudible). But I was sitting there ’till like probably 2:30 or later. I don’t know.
O: (Inaudible) around
G: Because I said I was at the Eagles Hall – I don’t even know what time I was there. I said I was there when everybody was leaving. I was like one of the last people at Eagles Hall.
O: Well, there’s no one (inaudible). When did YOU leave there?
G: Probably like 2:30.
O: What did you do there?
G: I just sat there talking to my cous (inaudible).
O: Okay, well I’ll give them a call and we’ll figure it out. In fact, I can give them a call here in just a minute.
G: And then I sat there for a while, and then I talked to Joey on the phone. I don’t remember what time it was. He says, I (inaudible) – when I talked to him last time, I got to – I got to Eagles Hall and everybody was leaving. But I don’t know what time it was. (Inaudible) it was around 3:30 when everybody was taking off (inaudible).
O: Well, that’s what your sister and them’s saying. But I don’t know if their times are right.
Other O: They locked the doors between 3:00 and 3:30.
O: Yeah, THEY had the doors closed.
G: Because we were the last people there.
O: Because the thing was over at 3:00.
G: Yeah, it was probably around then.
O: You left, um…
G: But it took a while for everybody to get out, because everybody’s drunk.
O: Yeah, everybody was out by 3:20.
G: There were a lot of people.
O: So, you went from 21st Avenue over to the Eagles Hall?
G: Yeah.
O: And you got there, people were leaving?
G: Uh-huh. People were leaving.
O: You see, the problem I’m having here is it’s sounding to me like people are trying to back step and figure out things to match up with other people’s stories and it’s starting to sound like a big mess.
G: I don’t – I don’t know. I…
O: And the way you talked to in front of the Tritts and Antonio, they were thinking you were there when this happened.
G: I wasn’t even there. How can they say that? I told them that…
O: Well, good point. Because of the detail you had. And I would like to know if one of these guys talked to you and told you what happened, or if you were there?
G: No. Somebody’s (inaudible)
O: Which one of these guys talked to you?
G: Harley told me…
O: No. Which one of these guys that were in the fight told you about it?
G: Nobody told me anything.
O: (Inaudible) You’re not in trouble here. We’re not here trying to hassle…
G: Look! I’m basing it all on the times you said. Eagles Hall – we left – a lot of people left Eagles Hall.
O: Look, here’s the problem. You call and you talk to Joey. Well, Joey thought you dropped these people off, right? And did some things in town and come back up to the hill. Right. (Inaudible) Well, that doesn’t match up with your sister’s (inaudible), who’s called by Kevin and told to adjust her time a little bit.
O: Well,
G: I don’t think that (inaudible) happened was Eugene and George got in a fight. It’s nothing that Eugene and George got in a fight was a whole different fight.
O: NO! He did! Now, I can play a part of the tape for your sister with Eugene saying how many times he kicked the guy. I just asked him how many times you kick him…
G: (Inaudible). How could Kevin do it, when it happened over there? Kevin was at my house and he had to go to his house.
O: No, he wasn’t at his house.
G: He was at my house and then he went to his house and got in a fight with his mom.
O: He got in a fight with his mom later.
G: All right.
O: Okay, and the way it happened, is ’cause all these guys have lied about (inaudible) and what time it was and all that, okay.
G: I don’t even know where they were. Because I didn’t see these people until 3:00 – when I first got down to Eagles Hall and I talked with them. And if they would have got in a fight, they would have told me (inaudible) because –
O: Right. Because that’s what we figured. We figured they told you about it –
G: (Inaudible)
O: And that’s why we knew so much information to talk with Antonio…
G: No, somebody’s telling you…
O: (Inaudible)
G: Um, like, I think it’s Harley, or one of them, told me that he got (inaudible) so bad that they had to cut open (inaudible). So, well…
O: How would he know that?
G: I don’t know, man. Lewis or somebody told me – I don’t know. But I was like, well, I was like, how could these guys – these guys wouldn’t (inaudible)…
O: Well, they certainly did. They certainly did.
G: Well, I think Eugene got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn. That’s what happened.
O: And what, a space man killed this boy?
G: Huh?
O: A guy from outer space killed this boy downtown?
G: I don’t know, man, there’s a lot of people downtown that night. You gotta’ understand there were other people downtown on Friday night.
O: But you see, none of them are admitting to doing it. And Eugene and George are, okay. That’s the problem we have, okay.
G: Well, how could – how could Kevin do it when he was sitting here and –
O: He wasn’t here.
G: He was here. He got dropped off at my house.
O: Well…
G: He got dropped off at my house.
O: And then he left. He didn’t even come in inside. Then he came back on his three-wheeler to your house.
G: He left his house. How could he –
O: ‘Cause he actually went downtown. He didn’t –
G: His house is that way, unless he got beat up that way. Then (inaudible) he would walk that way.
O: Well, I’M not going to argue with you. ‘Cause I know where Kevin was and I know what time he had a fight with his mom.
G: Well, yeah, it’s like. Not too (inaudible). ‘Cause after he got in a fight with his mom he came back over here on the three-wheeler and then passed out on the floor.
O: Except for (inaudible) – he stopped by the Alaska Motor Inn (inaudible).
G: He wasn’t even over there. I went over there. I never seen him over there the whole time. I stopped –
O: So, you really don’t know what time he was doing anything, do you?
G: I stopped –
O: Except what time he got here last.
G: I don’t know. It was probably about – I don’t know
O: Right.
G: I just heard –
O: Absolutely. So, you don’t know where any of these guys were when this boy was killed.
G: (Inaudible) I seen Eugene at 3:00 down at –
O: That’s not when the boy was killed. You don’t know when these guys were killed – or where they were when this boy was killed?
G: Uh-huh. Well, I don’t know where –
O: So don’t try to figure it out, okay. We just need to know –
G: I – I don’t see how they could do this, man.
O: WE just need to know what you know.
G: ‘Cause if they did, they would have told me about it. They would have told me they got into a fight. That’s the thing. And, George – I seen George and his foot – was nothing wrong with his foot.There’s nothing wrong –
O: If it was your brother or sister laying face down and had this done to ’em, you wouldn’t be talking like that, okay.
G: Yeah, but it wasn’t. That’s the thing.
O: That’s right. It wasn’t.
G: But it ain’t.
O: This was a 15 year old boy…
G: I don’t pretend things that never happened –
O: This was a 15 year old boy. This is a 15 year old boy –
G: I know it’s a 15 year old boy.
O: That got his head beat in.
G: Well, I can’t say it’s them.
O: His pants pulled down. Raped, and left in the gutter, okay. Now, if that was your friend, okay –
G: (Inaudible) problem, but it wouldn’t…
O: It would be –
G: I still wouldn’t blame these kids for something that I don’t know. See, there’s – I can’t tell…
O: That’s why you’re not the police and you’re not investigating this –
G: Thank God, ’cause I wouldn’t want to be working your job.
O: Okay, that’s why…
G: (Inaudible) but I –
Other O: I don’t understand your point. That’s exactly why what?
G: I don’t know. You said that’s the law. Whatever, man. I don’t need this. You all coming in here and harassing me in my own home. I wasn’t even with them; I was –
O: We’re not harassing you. What we’re doing is we’re just (inaudible) this right here in your home.
G: Well this is my home.
O: So you can disrespect whoever you want?
G: In my home, yes. This is my home. This is my house, man. I don’t need peole coming up in my house giving me shit (inaudible) –
O: Well, let me tell you something here. These are our streets, okay.
G: Right, man. They’re my streets too.
O: Just remember that, okay.
G: I don’t remember nothing. (Inaudible) on the streets. I live on the streets more than you do.
O: Remember that.
G: And, the thing is that I think if they did it, they would have told me about it. That’s all I’m saying
O: Maybe they’re not good friends with you. Maybe they –
G: Nah, man, these are my best friends. Ask the school – go to (Inaudible) Roberts. Ask them how close they are to me. Ask them how close these guys are. I mean, these are all my boys. Really close friends. And that’s the thing –
O: No, I have no idea. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.
(TAPE OFF)
The Fairbanks Four 