Category Archives: The Race Card

In discussing this case those opposed to the movement often insist that this is only about “playing the race card.” In life, as in poker, we must play with the cards we are dealt. The reality is that “the race card” is in the hand that many minorities are dealt, and certainly a factor for Native Alaskans and Native Americans in Alaska and throughout the country.

Trust me, we wish we didn’t have to play a “race card” because we wish these boys had been dealt a better card, an ace in the hole even. But race was a factor in this case. Race IS a factor still today. Period. Never has a piece of hatemail arrived that did not contain overt, uninformed, racism. Racism sealed the fate of these four, and we are not ashamed of that or afraid to say it like it is.

The Light Is Coming

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BillFilingWhen the Reverend Scott Fisher prayed with the crowd gathered in front of the Fairbanks Courthouse on the day the Alaska Innocence Project filed their court motion claiming the innocence of the Fairbanks Four, the hundreds gathered under a cold and gray sky fell silent and listened. It was that strange kind of silence – the absence of noise where sound should be. It was as if we all just knew that this prayer should be alone in the air, its path upward completely clear, the words free to travel unaccompanied into the heavens.

Just a few hours ago, it was night. Yet, the sun rose. Morning came. The light made its way over the horizon, and now we stand in the light. For sixteen years we have waited. For sixteen long years these young men in prison have waited, in darkness, with only faith that light would come. We call upon the soul of this young man John Hartman, who was taken by darkness, and promise him, morning is on its way. We remember that with only faith in the darkness we stood, we prayed, we waited for the light.

The preacher’s voice was soft. This was a lamentation, a laying down of grief. This was the painful recollection of so many prayers said and left unanswered. Yet in the long pause that followed these heavy words, hundreds of heads remained bowed. Everyone knew this prayer was not over. When he resumed it was in a voice of power, a proclamation.

But now, there is light on the horizon. We can see it, we feel it, and we know the light is coming. To those of you who have waited, with only your faith, who have feared and gone forward, who have fought for justice in a dark, dark world, let me assure you: THE LIGHT IS COMING. To those young men in their prison cells, fear not: THE LIGHT IS COMING. To those of you who have hidden in the darkness, kept yourself and your secrets there: THE LIGHT IS COMING. And it is time. Step into the light. Seek the light. Because it is seeking you, and soon there will be no dark place left to hide. We have walked through darkness these many miles and we have many miles left to travel, but there on the horizon we can see a glimpse of morning and we know THE LIGHT IS COMING.

courthousecrowdIt is hard to say when the clouds parted and the sun shone down on those people holding hands, heads bowed. But when we looked up, it was a blue-sky day. The summer found its way into the autumn, the sun touched everything, and the looming gray marble of the courthouse faded into the background, insignificant amongst the brilliant red and gold leaves on the trees and the blinding white sun shining off of the river. The clock tower and church bells rang out at once in a strange and serendipitous orchestra, and people broke out into song.

Nuchalawoyya

Nuchalawoyya

The song was Nuchalawoyya, a song many hundreds and maybe thousands of years old, from the people and the place on the river that these wrongfully imprisoned men dream of returning to. A word that means in literal translation, where two rivers meet. But, as many words, loses meaning in a simple translation. The word is a place where rivers meet, a place where people from many places met. A place where, long ago, people discussed things like treaties and territories. A place of common ground, a destination, and now, a celebration. A song.

The song began with a small circle of four men. The men who were singing were boys once. Just kids in 1997. Theirs were the first voices to ring out that day, a powerful song from this small circle of four men. All of them were interrogated in this case. Each of these men, in their mid-thirties now, have carried with them these many years a burden we rarely discuss – the shame that came with this case. The shame of feeling and believing that if they had been stronger and louder; that if their voices had somehow been heard that their friends would not have been taken. They have walked with the guilt of survivors, never knowing why it was they were not taken. They have understood the grief of Eugene and George, who buckled under pressure and have had to live with the shame and the belief that if they had been stronger perhaps they would be free, their friends would be free, they would be there as men should be, at home to care for their families, and now, that perhaps the next victims of the men who killed Hartman would be alive and home as well. These men have carried with them a thousand shades of shame, the pain unique to those who spoke the truth and were not heard.

The list of names of the men who were given this shame as boys and who have carried the weight of it through the years grows shorter with the passage of time. Beside them in that circle was the space where others should have been. People who are gone now. Many of the young people who were interrogated, questioned, who testified in those dark years, who lived through a time when they spoke as strongly as they knew how and were not heard, have been buried. Some have died at their own hand. Yet, as these remaining men broke into song you could see some of the burden – a burden which will never leave completely – lighten.

This time they were heard, and their voices were joined by many others.

For far too long a time this case has been about darkness. This injustice has thrived in shadows and fed itself on secrets. Injustice draws strength from the evils of humanity – shame, fear, trickery, corruption, pride, denial.

That time is over.

For those of you who have information in this case, step into the light. The sun is on the horizon, morning is on its way, and if you don’t seek the light, it will find you. The light is coming.

For those who have walked with a heavy heart, who still carry the shame and grief and fear and pain, set it down. Let that darkness go. The light is coming.

 

 

 

 

 

*photo of Nuchalawoyya above is by “FairbanksMike” whose lovely pictures can be seen on Flickr

True Murderer Comes Forward – A Letter from William Holmes

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story1We have a long tradition of letting people tell their own story.

Today, the Innocence Project walked into the courthouse and filed a motion for Post Conviction Release on behalf of George Frese, Eugene Vent, Marvin Roberts, and Kevin Pease. These men have maintained their innocence for almost sixteen years, and today definitive evidence of their innocence has been made public.

This court motion contained a lot of information – testimony by experts that George’s boot did NOT match the wounds on the victim, proof that Arlo Olson lied, proof that it would be scientifically impossible for someone to have seen what he claimed. But, the most important thing it contained, in our view, is a story. A handwritten confession, by a man named William Z. Holmes who confesses in detail the murder of John Hartman.

We have said many times that we believe people can feel the truth, see it, sense it, recognize it. And that is why we believe so strongly in the power of truth told by those who hold it. We believe the best we can do to help any injustice is to make a space where people can tell their truth. There will be plenty of articles, news, updates, and headlines about this case today, we will let them fill their purpose, and fill ours.

With that in mind, below is the handwritten confession of William Z. Homes. We will let that stand alone for today. You can judge for yourselves if it is the truth. We believe it is.

We believe in redemption. That anyone can do all they are able to change themselves during their time upon this Earth and that no matter how dark or low a place life takes us to that we can still seek light. So, we publish this with a great sadness for the heartbreaking manner in which John Hartman died, but also a hope for the individuals who did kill him, and every single one of those who helped to hide the truth and further lies, that they may use this time to come forward and begin what must be a very long journey toward redemption.

This day could have never come without the faith, hope, and hard work of many, and we thank you all. Our journey to justice is far from over, but today we begin a walk down a new road.

This is a sad story. Listen, listen.

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Let the Circus Begin – The First Days of the Hartman Case in the Press

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For those of you that have read this blog from the beginning, consider for a moment that most of the events we have discussed here represent mere hours of real-time. If this blog took place in real-time, the victim in the crime would still be on life support in ICU, not yet identified. The evening news would come on with a picture of his badly beaten face, identifying him only as John Doe, and pleading with residents of Fairbanks to help identify the boy.

Eugene would be in Fairbanks Youth Facility, just beginning to sober up, no doubt terrified and confused from many hours of interrogation with the Reid Method. He would be spending the first of the more than 5,300 nights in jail to come.

George would still be in interrogation. Later that night he would go home, tell his girlfriend’s brother about the interrogation, how terrified he had been, that he felt like they had made him agree to a crazy story, that he was afraid. Then he would  lay down and let his small daughter fall asleep beside him for the last time.

Marvin would be at home with his mother, bewildered and shaken by his interview with police but confident that the ordeal was over, and with no idea that the police were coming to arrest him in mere hours.

Kevin would be at home with his mother and girlfriend, watching that broadcast, not yet aware that the police were already using his name in their theories and as a device in interrogations of others.

And in the press room of the local Fairbanks Daily Newsminer, the first articles about this case were being checked for typos. Headlines were being written. And as those first words went to press, the saga of the Fairbanks Four began in earnest, as did the decades long role of the media in this case.

Our next posts will be copies of the original newspaper articles in the case.

“In a sense, words are encyclopedias of ignorance because they freeze perceptions at one moment in history and then insist we continue to use these frozen perceptions when we should be doing better.”
– Edward de Bono

The first newspaper article on the case appeared on Monday, October 13th. The front-page article was titled “Teen dies in hospital after downtown attack” and contained little information. It said that four men and one juvenile were being held on $1 million bail, and that the motive for the attack was unknown. They promised details would follow the next day.

The next day, on October 14th, the case was front page news again, this time with details that ignited a deep and widespread rage throughout the small Alaskan city. Most of the details would prove to be fiction in the days and weeks to follow, but the damage was done. These details would be the ones that Fairbanks residents remembered about the case forever – these details would inspire randomized attacks on Native Alaskans with crowbars downtown in the days to come. These details would create a divide that may never be healed.

The headline of that article was “Attack called “random violence” and beside it was a picture of John Hartman, aged 13 in the photograph, kneeling in his Redskins Youth Football League Uniform.The caption of the photo was “Random Victim John Hartman.”

The article began with a sentence that no doubt made most readers shudder: “The 15-year-old boy beaten to death by four assailants early Saturday was kicked in the head at least 15 times and then sexually assaulted in what the police say was an act of ‘random street violence.’ ”

The article goes on to say that the four had attended a wedding reception, and that a string of random violent assaults began there and culminated with the fatal beating and sexual assault of Hartman. The article insinuates that the four were together, began a string of violent attacks at the wedding reception, attacked Hartman, and then attacked a hotel clerk. The article is short – very short  – with an astounding number of inaccuracies and contradictions. Among the most important:

1. The victim was “kicked in the head at least 15 times and then sexually assaulted.” In reality, there was no confirmation of any kind that there had been a sexual assault. The manner of death remained unknown, and the number of blows suffered remained unknown. The victim had been found with oversized pants near his knees(belonging to Chris Stone, the last person to see him alive), creating speculation among hospital staff that he may have been sexually assaulted.  Ultimately the medical examiner would state there was not evidence of a sexual assault. Other experts to review the report would agree that there had been no sexual assault.

2. “Paramedics found him lying in a pool of blood.” Although this is likely true, and corroborated by the statement of the college student Calvin Moses who found the victim, no photographs were taken of the scene. Police would later claim that there was almost no blood, or an “insignificant” amount of blood, and offer that as the explanation as to why there was no DNA evidence of any kind to tie the accused to the crime.

3. “The suspects confronted the victim shortly before 3 am as the teenager walked home from a friend’s house.” No one had described any circumstances surrounding the attack – there was no indication of any kind of confrontation. The victim was walking with a friend, and was not walking home from a friend’s house. More importantly, the assault took much earlier, near 1:30 am, and at a time the men had alibis. Read about that HERE.

4. “A key break in the Hartman investigation came when a hotel clerk reported he had been assaulted by three males in a hotel room.” Although the hotel clerk Mike Baca rapidly confessed to having fabricated the story of the gun-weilding attack, even in his original fictitious report he did not describe being assaulted by three males in a hotel room.

5. “One of them was Vent, who pulled out a handgun.” Eugene Vent did not have any altercation with the hotel clerk. No one pulled a gun on the hotel clerk. The hotel clerk admitted that he made up the story in an effort to get police to respond to a loud and out of control teenage party at his hotel. Security cameras confirmed there was no assault, and no gun. Read more about that HERE and directly from Eugene about that night HERE.

6. “Vent told police he participated in the Hartman assault…..” Read about Eugene’s interrogation and read the transcript of the interrogation HERE.

7. “Frese corroborated Vent’s statement…” Read about George’s interrogation HERE. Hear about that night from George directly HERE.

8. “No one tried to intervene but police have witnesses who heard the assault.” The second title of the story was “FATA:L ASSAULT: Witnesses.” No witnesses had come forward, and witnesses (plural) never did. One ultimately would, but her time-specific testimony would be upending to the police timeframe and theory. Read about her HERE.

9. The four suspects were “probably drinking.” Police knew that Eugene and George had been extremely intoxicated during interrogation, and also  knew that Marvin had been sober the night in question. The insinuation that they were “probably drinking” insinuates that they were together, drinking together, and indicates intoxication as a motive even though the police know it was not a factor that night for all four men. It also reinforces sterotype.

10. “All four defendants…attended a wedding reception at the Eagle’s Lodge.” In reality, only Marvin attended the reception. George was in the parking area at one point, Kevin was in a car that stopped at the reception, and Eugene walked through the reception briefly looking for a friend. The four did not attend the reception together, and three of the four did not truly attend at all. For more information, read their timelines.

11. “The first in a string of assaults occurred in the lodge parking lot.” No assault occurred at the lodge or in the lodge parking lot. Frank Dayton walked to the parking lot of the busy lodge after he was assaulted to get help. Read about that HERE. That said, there was a troubling amount of violence that night, with a car and suspects that did not match the description of the four accused. Read about them HERE.

12. “Some of the people at the reception attended a separate party at the Alaska Motor Inn.” This information is attributed to the hotel clerk, who would not have known if the hotel room party and reception were connected. They were not connected events. One was a wedding reception for a respected and responsible family, the other was simply a teenager’s party.

13. “20 people were drinking in one of the rooms.” There was never any indication that 20 people were present at Alaskan Motor Inn.

14. The article went on to identify Hartman as home schooled (in reality, he was not enrolled in school) and as a football player (he had not played on any sports team for more than a year). The picture used was out of date, exaggerating the contrast between the accused and the victim.

Ultimately, the article was little more than a fictional yet sensational story that would be repeated over and over in the community of Fairbanks until it was universally accepted as true. It was easy to accept that it was true, even though nearly all of it was embellished, because the story woven from half-truths and lies took advantage of racial stereotypes hundreds of years older than any of the people writing or reading it. Four drunk Native men killed a white all-American boy and raped him for no reason, he just happened to be in the way on a night when they were on a spree of random violence. Savage. Attacking children, white children, for no reason. Four on one. Merciless.

America created itself with the Declaration of Independence, which contains the following sentence: ” the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.”

The first newspaper articles on this case printed lies. Lies told by a bored hotel clerk named Mike Baca and  police Lt. Keller who was desperate to solve a crime and save face. The sensational plot line was never plausible, accurate, or backed up by facts. Yet, this story was accepted because it had already been written into this town. Into this country. In newspapers, hearts, minds, souls, history, the future. It struck a chord in a population with a bias, and in shock over a brutal crime, that bias blinded them.

The Fairbanks Four were tried and convicted in the newspaper October 14, 1997.

They were not innocent until proven guilty.

They would be convicted with lies and sensationalism a hundred times in the press before they were convicted with lies in a courtroom that had made its mind up long ago.

In a few short months, newspaper articles would begin to unearth inconsistencies in the case. Ten years after the murder the first ray of hope – the largest and most serious effort to expose the injustice the Fairbanks Four had suffered would be a series of articles, covering the front page of the Fairbanks Daily Newsminer for weeks in a row, just as the case had in those early days. But this series would focus on the many indications that the Fairbanks Four had been wrongfully convicted.

Perhaps they will be exonerated in the press a hundred times before they are exonerated in a courtroom, just as they were convicted first in the press.  Either way, the local press is one of the most compelling characters in this story, one that plays a fascinating and always-changing role – a character we introduce in this post and will write about many times before this story is over.

Alibis and Witnesses X – Gary Edwin

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Gary Edwin is originally from Tanana, Alaska. He is the proud father of five, and works for Doyon Drilling.  Gary is arguably Marvin’s most important alibi. In 1997 he was 24 years old, working as a substance abuse counselor, and spent the evening with his wife, Marvin, and Angelo at the wedding reception at the Eagle’s Hall. His younger cousin Angelo Edwin,  spent the entire evening with Marvin. Both Angelo and Gary appear over and over in Marvin’s timeline which you can read HERE.

Through the years there have been many accusations from the community that the Native witnesses that came forward as alibis in this case had alcohol-affected memories and were conspiring to create a cover-up for the Fairbanks Four. It is important, then, to note that Gary was not drinking the night of the murder. It is also important to note that Gary and his brother Angelo went voluntarily and immediately to the police when they heard Marvin had been arrested for a crime committed that night, and that they had not had time to falsify a story, and in fact made statements before anyone knew the time that the assault had been committed against John Hartman (read more about the time of the crime HERE). In a nutshell, the prosecution’s contention that the alibis were either drunk or making up stories simply hold no weight whatsoever in regards to Gary Edwin.

Gary lives with a burden that is tragically not unique in this case – he does not need to read case files, newspapers, opinions, or rulings to know that his young friend was wrongfully convicted. For him there is no speculation of police misconduct, no question about whether or not the evidence in this case was manufactured – he watched it happen. He has never read the content on this blog, yet his story is painfully familiar. It is the kind of thing that a person never forgets. Below, he tells his story in his own words:

On That Night

“I spent the entire, well hours you know, of that night with Marvin. I would say from around midnight until at least 2 am, even later, when the reception ended. He sat with us at our table, and I saw him basically the whole night. Dancing, visiting, having fun.”

Note – Gary had a conversation with Marvin during the night at what ended up being a very critical moment, when 911 was called to bring aid to a beaten and shaken Frank Dayton (whose assault  you can read about HERE). Although no one, including the police, had yet established a timeline on the assault for John Hartman at the time Gary first gave the police this information, Gary was having a conversation with Marvin concerning Frank Dayton at the exact same time that Hartman was being beaten to death blocks away.

The Next Day

“The next day I went over to Marvin’s  he was, he sold me a pair of Oakley’s that he had gotten but didn’t like, and I had seen them the night before and said ‘well, I’ll bring money over for them tomorrow.’ So, I brought him the money had he gave me the glasses. He asked if I wanted to go up and play ball, and I told him I would go pick up Angelo on my way home and grab my ball gear, and meet him up at the SRC.”

Marvin was not at the SRC for the planned basketball game. By then he was sitting with the police, insisting that he was innocent and pleading with the interrogators to listen. Gary Edwin called Marvin’s mother.

“And then his mom asked if we had seen what was on the news. And she said they had picked up Marvin, George, Kevin and Eugene. And I was like, damn.

She said, ‘I thought you guys were with Marv last night.’

And we were like ‘Yeah, all night.’

I asked, what’d you guys do after the reception? And he told me that after they stopped by the bar or party they kinda drove around a little bit, that they went through the drive-thru, and then he dropped him off at home.

So, I was like, wow, you know, we need to go down to the police station and tell them, make a statement. We thought, of course, that was the thing to do.”

On the Interviews with Police

When we got down there, the detectives were acting pretty weird about our statements, we were like, “hey, we were with Marvin all night, you know from this time to this time.”

When I went in with the detectives that were taking my statement they kept trying to twist what I was saying. Finally it just came down to me just wanting to give a statement and get out of there. So was like, just give me a piece of paper and I’ll write it down for you. And I was so uncomfortable, I was writing it, but I was more worried about getting out of there.

When I got out to the lobby, Angelo came out of his room after me, and he was really shook up. And one of the detectives grabbed Angelo by the arm and was like, “You better make DAMN sure you know what you’re saying to be the truth, because we have a 15-year-old kid that’s been murdered and this is, this needs to be taken serious, or something to that effect.

When we left, Angelo said he experienced the same thing while being interrogated, or while he was trying to give a statement.”

On Why These Memories Remain So Clear Today

“You know, I went in believing I was doing the right thing. To show up and have people that are supposed to help and protect you, making you feel like you actually did something wrong, or you are involved in something that’s wrong, it’s….it is a real eerie feeling.

I was twenty-four in 1997, four years older than those others at least. I mean, more or less, we went in there thinking we were doing something to help the police, and by the time we left it was like, we wanted to run, just get the hell out of the police station. I was educated, and I wasn’t as afraid because I know my rights. But the young people that didn’t know their rights, maybe the only interaction they had with police officers was this, was bad, I totally understand how bad it must have scared them.

On What It Is Like to Watch The Case Unfold

It made me really fear Fairbanks Police, for one. I actually moved out of Fairbanks after all of this. Even when we were in Anchorage, when we were there to testify, that Detective and Jeff O’Bryant, they followed us around Anchorage. It was clear, always, trying to intimidate us. My cousin Patrick, they were hard on him. He couldn’t deal with all the harassment from them. It was…..it was unbelievable, but it was happening. Yeah, it changed, wow, it changed a lot of things….. those memories will always be there.”

In the Air – Alibis and Witnesses VIII

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Edgar Henry is originally from Tanana, and spent his earliest years being raised along the Yukon, with strong traditional Athabascan values, learning to hunt and live with the land. Today he is the proud father of a seven year old girl, who has him pretty wrapped around her finger. He says she is “the boss.”

He spent the night of the murder with George (see him on George’s timeline HERE) along with his brother, the late Patrick Henry. Edgar drank heavily, alongside George. However Patrick did not drink at all, and was very conscious of time that night. He was absolutely certain on the timeline of the group’s movements, and knew George’s whereabouts from well before the time of the murder until after 3am. Edgar’s memory was not as clear.

When police interviewed him, as with others who you can read about here, here, and here, they actually interrogated him. Like with others, they interrogated him with the Reid Method of interrogation, a methodology so likely to produce trauma and false confessions that it is illegal in many countries (read about this interrogation method HERE). It is not ever recommended for use on young people, impaired people, people whose memory is somehow corrupted, and is designed for use on suspects who the police already know are guilty of the crime.

Edgar’s interrogation was a nightmare. After hours of unrelenting questioning, threats, and lies, he agreed that he might have seen George, Marvin, Eugene, and Kevin together that night. He recanted immediately.

Below, Edgar discusses that night, the interrogation, the past, and the future in his own words.

What do you remember about that night?

Yeah, well, we were at George’s house for most the night. We drank, like, cases of beer within just a few hours, playing a drinking game. We got totally wasted. Really, I don’t remember much of the details. Like I came to for a second, and there was a whole group of us walking to the reception, a big group. And I remember walking down the stairs of the Eagle’s Hall, like a flash of it. I remember, well I guess kinda remember, being by the Eagles’ Hall. (Read about the science behind blackouts HERE).

Patrick never drank that night. My late brother was a good guy, and the kind of person that paid attention to time, too. He was with us, just watching over us. I was so wasted that night I guess I gave him like close to like 600 bucks that night, I didn’t even remember. It was the money I had to get an apartment, when I woke up I thought i got rolled or something, all my cash was gone, and then my brother gave it back to me.

That night we stayed at George’s apartment, in the morning he was all, “Man, my ankle is killing me.” He was real hurt, and he left. It was sometime that day, or maybe even later, that next day that I heard he was arrested.

What was your reaction when George was arrested?

At first when I heard he was arrested, I was just confused. I knew he was with us that night, ya know, so when I heard he was in trouble at all I just thought it didn’t make sense. When I heard that he was arrested for charges like these, man I don’t know, I was like, how could that be? How could that even be? I remember talking to my brother Patrick about it, and we just couldn’t understand how, after learning what he was in jail for and them saying it was that night, we knew it was impossible. We knew he was with us the whole night.

When did you talk to the police?

It was a long time, they (the police) kept on trying to get a hold of me. I was avoiding them, because – well, I was scared. I grew up afraid of them, and then they had just gone and done this to my bro.They told me I was, that I had no choice and was like subpeonaed and had to go. So I was scared that they would come arrest me or show up at the house or something like that.

What was it like when you did talk to the cops?

Well I went downtown, and they took me to this room. I remember one of the guys, they kept on going in and out of the room, and the interrogation room is really, really small. I sat down at this small little space, there was just one chair in the that corner I sat in. I was literally cornered. These two officers sitting basically knee to knee with me, like they were, just had me completely cornered. They kept me two, three hours or more. I had never been through anything like that before, and I never, ever want to be in that position again. I believed they were going to arrest me, they had just done it to George.

It was like they were, ya know, telling me pretty much –  they were scaring me is what they were doing, saying like maybe you were there, maybe you murdered him, things like that. They way they were questioning me, too, they were asking the same questions over and over and over again, but the question was just asked in different ways and the way they were asking it was pretty much only one way to answer it, which is what they wanted to hear. For hours I kept telling them the plain truth, and they were telling me, “you can’t  black out, alcohol doesn’t black you out,” and they were trying to make it sound like I was lying. Then the one was coming in and out, in and out, and lying and telling me that my story was different than my brother’s, that I was going to get Patrick in trouble if I didn’t answer the way they were telling me to. I, I was just really, very scared.

Eventually, I don’t know, I think it was, when I first started agreeing with their answers I was only saying “I guess,” or  “I don’t know,”  and then they just started making “I guess so” into a “yes.”

That question they kept asking, it was whether you saw these four guys together or getting into a car that night. Did you see those four guys together that night?

No, I only said “I guess so” and all that because, I don’t know, it was like some kind of trick. They would ask, ask, ask, in a different sentence, it was hours of the same question, and I knew that. I knew that the only thing was to just kind of agree, to get out. No, I didn’t see them together that night. I saw George, and that was all.

What about Patrick’s interrogation?

My brother was being questioned at the same time, for a long time too. He, though, he didn’t drink at all, he watched times, he was real sure of himself. He didn’t ever agree to their answers. I guess eventually he told them he wanted he lawyer, so they let him go.

After, after they questioned him and after the trials and all, he was really pissed off at Aaron Ring, and Kendrick, O’Bryant, and all those guys, he was like, man, these guys are racist. That they were just racist. It was so obvious, everyone knew they were not together that night. We knew. They knew. Everyone knew they didn’t do it, Patrick just, he couldn’t believe it.

What was George like back in 1997?

We would always be hanging out, I spent a lot of time with George back then. Lifting weights, sometimes I would babysit for them, just hanging out. George, he was a real good dad, his baby girl was everything to him. Real good dad. I’ve known George, cripes, since I was like 11. Since we were real kids. He’s just a good guy, always liked to joke around, and real cool. He would never do something like this, I mean I know he didn’t, but I know also that he wouldn’t.
You were scared to begin with of the police. Why?

Things back then with the police in general were just bad. I mean everyone was scared. Yeah, even one time when Patrick, when he was like 15 years old, he told me about a time he was driving his bike home and an officer pulled him over, for nothing, then the officer told him to lean against the car with his hands behind his head, and Patrick didn’t hear him, but the officer slammed his head into the car, and said, “Next time you do what I say.” And stories like that, they just happened all the time back then. So of course, of  course we were scared.

You were questioned with the same method they used on George. If they had been interrogating you over the murder, do you think you would have agreed, you know, confessed?

Yeah, I do. Probably, yeah, probably. Because, it’s hard to explain, but the persistence, and the pressure, and they way they talk to you. And the way they make you feel, all in your face, making you feel like you are cornered, really you are cornered. And agreeing is the only way out. It’s all about, it is fear.  Fear.

Do you think they will be free someday?

I believe they will. Yes, they will. The word is out, people are getting more educated on this, they have been in there long enough, too long, in there for nothing. And I just, I feel it. I have had dreams about it. It’s like it’s in the air. I have no doubt, I believe they will get out.

Old Ways in a New Time

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The story of the Fairbanks Four is old. So, so very old. This happened in 1997, but it was happening long before that, has happened each day since that, is happening now. 1492, 1513, 1667, 1897……in every numbered year this country counts as its own this same story is told. This story is older than any who are reading it today. As old as the first broken treaty, as old as the first proclamation. This proclamation is from 1513, but it could be from any year. They all say the same thing:

But, if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses; we shall take you and your wives and your children, and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can, as to vassals who do not obey, and refuse to receive their lord, and resist and contradict him; and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their Highnesses, or ours, nor of these cavaliers who come with us.

Proclamations are the only promises made to Indians that never got broken. They all contain a singular threat – one hundred romantically penned variations of the same violent proclamation: cast away your story, strip away all that you are, shed yourself of the past. Take our ways into yourself so completely that you forget you ever had a story separate from the conquerer.Come to us as pilgrims, empty-handed and lost. And if you do not, we will be certain that you suffer in every imaginable way. And this suffering will be your fault.

It was and is a threat impossible to bow under, no matter its gravity. Because we, as humans, cannot shed all that we are. No matter how time marches, no matter how the world around us changes we are, all of us, born into something. Born into a story that began long before we came to this earth, that will continue long after we depart.

In Athabascan culture, in nearly every indigenous culture, there is a story. An idea. A truth. So old it cannot be cast away. It lives inside all the people who were raised with it. Taken at a mother’s breast, breathed in like a smell that can bring you to your knees with homesickness. Stained like a white porcelain cup that has held many years worth of tea. Soaked in like the faint smell of salmon on hands that have worked on the fish all day and all night. Lingering, like the scent wood smoke clings to long hair. Pieces of your distant history that remain. Traces of the place you came from. Bits of long-ago. They cannot be beaten, threatened, or proclaimed away. They remain.

The old ways. For hundreds and thousands of years, those with authority had earned it. These people lived through winters of suffering and summers of laughter, season after season of a life not lived by chance. They spent many hours in work and silence. They found stories in dreams and memory, through all of these things, they were listening. And in this way, authority came to them. A kind of medicine. Chiefs. Healers. Elders. Old warriors. Grandmothers.  Among this people, authority was bestowed by fate and by time onto those who deserved it. And authority of this kind could be trusted. They, above all others, could be trusted. Their truth held more power than yours, their truth is more true. And that was the old way.

Yet, it is a new time. And in the new time came authority in new forms, it came to these en differently. Strong-armed, stolen, grabbed, wrestled from the hands of others. A kind of authority taken through vows, seminary, schools, presented in paper certificates, draped on in sashes, pinned on as badges.

You can scream at the top of your lungs, claw at the earth, write until your fingers bleed, and it is still so hard, so very very hard, to show someone a story like this one – so old, so buried, so deep. A story that refuses to rise out of the dream realm, a story that lingers in the in-between, a story that seems never told, just known or not known.

I have to tell you that story. Somehow.

No one wants race to be an issue in this case. No one wants race to be an issue at all. But in some ways we are all beholden to our history. When authority as defined by colonialism encounters children from a culture with a different concept of authority entirely, history bursts into reality. The two parts do not fit they way we wish they did. And it doesn’t make anyone wrong, it simply proves that everyone is human, and that we are not after all exactly the same.

In 1997 in Fairbanks, Alaska there were men in power who issued a proclamation. Not written, not official. Unspoken. Painfully familiar. So very real. We heard it – all the kids that ran around those dismal streets in the 90’s, always afraid, always looking over our shoulders. It shuddered through the air when the cars rolled into Midtown, crept through our streets. When they screeched toward us we could hear it between the pulses of the siren. It came from the static on their radios. We could hear it in our bones……we shall powerfully enter into your country, and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Police and of their Court; we shall take you, and your women and your children, and shall make slaves of you all. We shall sell and dispose of you as the Court may command; and we shall take away your goods, and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can – and we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, not ours.

We were afraid of these men. We had fair reason to be. Nothing but little kids, chased and caught, pushed and harmed, by grown men. A deeper reason, too. Something like the way the fish moves from just the slight shadow of the spear, the way any animal knows when what would end it lurks near. We feared these men who were somehow also people with authority.  We knew that there was something in us they sought to punish. And it shames me still to say it, but if we could have cast it away and freed ourselves of the dogs at our heels, I think we would have. But we couldn’t. And we didn’t know how to stand up against it.

Inside us with that fear –  lingering, stronger  – was a very old way. A way that whispered a contradiction: these men have authority. They possess a truth greater than our own. Perhaps not earned, but there nonetheless. They will tie you to a chair. Lock you away. Steal you from your family. Cut your tongue, take your breath, try, try to take away the story.

So, when they came to take away the simple truth from a dozen and more young Indians, they got what they wanted. Or at least, they thought they did.

Underneath, the truth remained. Proclamations were fulfilled and treaties broken, but still something kept the people and their story alive.The truth waited. It never changed and it grew only stronger. Because in these last fourteen years we did the work of remembering. Remembering that you cannot take away a person’s story. You cannot abduct, handcuff, beat down, or lock up the truth.

Some of us do not make proclamations or treaties. Some still prefer to lay in wait, to rely on truth and prophecy, to do our work and let the world do its work. So, we will not proclaim to you that something has changed. But we will be here, as present and as peaceful as shadows in the grass, because we have never left. And we are content simply to know, to feel the years blow through like winds, the push of something coming up through the soil. There is no proclamation, only the truth. We know what comes next. See, this is still our story, this is still a story where truth outlasts and outsmarts deceit.

We know the ending.

SIGN THE PETITION TO FREE THE FAIRBANKS FOUR HERE

Trail of Tears – Witnesses and Alibis VII

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Shara David was fifteen years old in 1997. She spent the evening of October 10th and early morning hours of October 11th with Eugene Vent and Kevin Pease. Shortly after the police apprehended the four, they went to the Goebel residence where they interviewed Shara and others for a first time, and second time. These first interviews were not on tape. A last interview was taped. Shara describes these interviews as one of the worst experiences of her life.

The police used an interrogation technique, known as the Reid method, to interrogate the four suspects. This method is highly controversial, and illegal in many countries because it is so psychologically unraveling. Damaging. It is implicated in many, many false confessions. The method should really, if ever, only be used on suspects that interrogators know are guilty, and certainly not on youthful or intoxicated suspects. It should not have been used on the Fairbanks Four.  But what is really heartbreaking and unique about the case of the Fairbanks Four is that this method was not just used on the four accused – it was used on those who came forward with stories that contradicted the police theory. It was used on kids that the police knew were innocent. On children, whose parents were not present. Shara was one of those kids.We should all remember that although we hear from people who are adults today, in 1997 many of them were just kids.

Shara cried through both interviews, has been haunted for years by her treatment and the experience of watching this wrongful conviction unfold. Her story is a reminder that so many tears are shed, and that so many people heartbroken in the pursuit of injustice. The experience changed her life and hurt her badly. It is brave, very brave, and admirable that she agreed to tell her story. Here it is:

On That Night

It was just a normal night. A fun night of going out and everything. If this wouldn’t have happened the memories of that night would be just a normal night of going out.

After all these years of trying to forget there are so many things I don’t remember. Mostly little details. Like what it was like at the party at Kevin’s house, and how it was, or who all was there. But I know it was me, Kevin Pease, Kevin Bradley, Shawna, and Eugene. And Joey, he drove.And the things I remember well, its like vivid.

When we were driving back, like toward the Eagle’s hall, I saw a clock. A digital sign clock, I guess it must have been on University and Giest. And I saw that clock, I saw the time. I was so sure. All these years later I don’t remember for sure what it said, two something maybe, but I know that in that first police interview I KNEW. I was sure. So insistent when the police first talked to me about the times. Its been years, all these years of trying to force myself to forget but there are some things you can’t get rid of. Like that clock. I know I saw the time, and when I told them that first time  I know I was right.

We got back to the Eagles and it was late. Like, from the time that we first pulled up to the Eagle’s and then drove over to Conan’s and back, and were at the Eagle’s for a while. All of that could not have even taken an hour, from when we first pulled up to the Eagle’s to when Marvin gave me a ride. It was so fast.

Another memory that is so clear is that at the Eagle’s Eugene was standing at the door. He was so drunk that he was swaying and leaning on the door. He kept asking every woman he saw to dance with him and we were like clowning on him about it. He was so drunk and just asking everyone to dance, and we were, he was our friend, our boy ya know, but we were clowning on him about that. It was funny.

I got a ride out of there from Marvin. And he was sober. He was sober and everything was fine, normal. Him, his car. He dropped us off at Conan and Shawna Goebel’s house, Allen and I.

We were there for a while – I think probably not much more than an hour. And what I remember about Kevin coming over there was we heard his three wheeler pulling up. Allen and I were sitting on the couch. Kevin never really got that drunk, so it was kinda funny you know. He came in just blabbering and laughing I think about something, and kinda fell back. And we were like, what the hell are you doing driving?

And it was dark, really dark, and late. So he was kinda rolling around laughing, we were just, it was funny. And that used to get to me after the cops kept saying maybe he was crying, maybe….that used to get to me sometimes, but in reality it was planted. The cops just tried to drill things into your head, to like make you doubt your memories.

But I know I was with Eugene, I mean, the whole time, the whole night. Even without perfect times, I know it was from early, that whole time at Kevin’s party, and then at the Eagle’s. And I was with Kevin the whole night, too, except for when he was at his mom’s but after that he came to Conan and Shawna’s and passed out there. And so I have always known, I mean KNOWN, that they are innocent.

On Being Interviewed By The Police

They came I think it was that next day. The evening I think, and they talked to us. It was not an interview. It felt like an interrogation. I don’t even know how to describe it. It was scary, terrifying. I was crying and crying. I agreed to talk to them just to, you know because I should. You know this is how young I was, that it scared me to tell them that Kevin drove because I thought he would get a DUI. I told them, but that is how I guess naive I was that I thought like the worst trouble, that maybe I could get him in trouble for driving. But when we got to times and everything is when it turned so bad. I was just saying the truth, all I remembered about the night. Calling me a liar, the way they treated me, it was terrifying. I thought they would take me to jail, I thought that they would take me away. That there was nothing. Nothing. I can’t describe it.

The second interview then they were just trying to mess me up. To drill their times into my head, to make me unsure about everything. And it did. I was scared, and I thought that they were going to take me away. I was crying, and it was just bad.

On the Call From Kevin

“The police tried to make it like, they said that Kevin called and told us to lie. But didn’t. That wasn’t how the call was at all.

When Kevin called it was after the first time when Aaron Ring was there. He said how he had made a huge mistake when he lied, that he had told the police he was with his girlfriend all night, that he shouldn’t have. I did tell him that it was so scary, how bad it was they way the police were talking to us. He was, really, he was just reassuring to us. He told us to just stick to the truth, and he felt bad about the way, how the cops had been to. He said just keep your head up, tell the truth. He was always that kind of person, I don’t know, just watched out for you. And he said, tell the truth. He never, ever, never asked us to lie.”

On How the Experience Affected Her

“After they were arrested, I honestly thought they would get out. I knew they were innocent, so I honestly thought they would. I was young, all I thought was that justice and cops was there to bring real justice. Now, I understand that there is a lot of wrong in the world. It’s like, I thought the cops were there to protect us, so I thought they were there to do the right thing. That they would do the right thing. Learning that that is not true, it’s hard.

I have always known they were innocent. It changed me. It changed my life. It sucked so much until I forced myself to block it out…it was really hard on me at first. For a long time. Them going to jail and being innocent, me being interrogated and it was so terrifying, it as just a lot for me. Them calling me a liar and all that stuff. And just the fact KNOWING that your friends are innocent and you can’t do nothing about it.”

On Deciding to Come Forward Today

I always kept up on it, the case and articles, at first. For a long time I thought honestly they would get out. But eventually I had to let it go. So for a long time I just have blocked it out.

And then when you and Ricko emailed me, I kinda thought it over, I talked to my sister for a long time and I’ve thought and thought and I finally decided that this is a big issue in my life, and I really need to not sit here and do nothing.It was something so hard to remember, to deal with it, that I worked, I really worked at blocking it out.  But eats at you. That’s why it’s so hard.

I dream about it.  I used to dream about it ALL the time. I can’t even remember the details of the dreams, just like fear. Fear, nightmares. Especially from getting interrogated. I felt like I was being arrested. Nightmares because of the helplessness of it.  I felt like I couldn’t do nothing, nothing to help. So I tried to forget.

I was fifteen then, and now I’m 30. I hated him. I hated Aaron Ring for a long time, a real long time. I don’t hate them anymore. I’m an adult, so I choose to believe that they were trying to do their jobs.  I think they need some intensive training on how to interrogate people, that what they did to us, it should never be done to anyone. That they were the total wrong people to deal with the situation at all.

I wish I wouldn’t have been so young then. I wish I wouldn’t have been so scared. They scared me so bad, but I wish I had sat there and stuck up for the truth, been more persistent. Just not be scared. I wish I had sat there and stuck up for my friends better.

I am an adult now. I want to say that these men are innocent and I KNOW that. I was there, and that there is no way they did this crime. I was so scared back then that they were going to come take me and put me in jail. Now that I am older, I just want to say that I know for a fact that I saw that clock, that I was right, that I was with them that whole night. So it’s hard, but for me to sit here now as an adult and KNOW that this is just wrong, I have to speak up. This hurt me so much, it changed me. And it’s still hard, you know, to talk about. But I want to say that these guys, they are innocent.

 

We cannot applaud Shara enough for sharing her story. There are many people out there in our community who have information about who killed John Hartman – information that could change lives and heal wrongs. You can come forward completely anonymously by calling 907-279-0454, or if you wish to come forward and give your name, be eligible for the ever-growing reward for information in this case. If you OR ANYONE YOU KNOW has information about the Hartman case, please come forward.

If you want to see Shara in Eugene, Kevin, and Marvin’s timelines, she’s there!

An Injustice Anywhere…..The story of the Englewood Four, who were exonerated today!

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In the mid-nineties, four young minority men were interrogated for hours upon hours in the rape and strangulation murder of a sex worker. After these hours of incredible pressure, they confessed. Nearly immediately after their interrogations the four voiced their innocence, and stood by it steadfastly for all the years to follow.

There was no physical evidence of any kind linking the four men to the crime scene, the victim, or each other.

Still, they were tried, convicted, and served nearly seventeen years for a rape and murder based upon the terrified statements of a few teenagers.

Beginning to sound familiar?

The reality is that the Fairbanks Four are not alone; far from it. Convictions without evidence based on false confessions from young people are sickeningly common. Our society is led to believe that our justice system is righteous, and as such would be eager to seek out the instances when people have been wrongfully convicted and set the record straight. Sadly, the noble pursuit of justice for justice’s sake is sickeningly uncommon.

The Englewood Four were blessed to have DNA evidence in their case which could eventually be linked to other offenders. When a re-testing of the DNA linked the semen at the crime scene to a serial rapist and murderer known in his neighborhood as “Manic,” WHO HAD BEEN PRESENT AT THE SCENE OF THE MURDER WHEN POLICE ARRIVED, any rational person would assume that the state attorney would push for exoneration of the Englewood Four. Instead, he fought to keep them behind bars. Hard.

The good news? Today, these four men were exonerated. It took a lot of work – YEARS of work. 70,000 signatures on a petition. Representation from the Innocence Project, the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth, the Exoneration Project of the University of Chicago Law School AND Valorem Law Group. But, today, their lives changed. Not one moment of the seventeen years that were stolen from them can be returned. Not one birthday, not one hug, not one Christmas present, not one quiet cup of coffee, none of the weddings or funerals they missed. Time can be stolen, but not returned. There is no restitution on this Earth to give back to these men what was taken from them.

The only silver lining in these heartbreaking cases – The Fairbanks Four, the Englewood Four, and the thousands of others like them – is that perhaps through their stories justice will grow stronger, corruption will weaken, and someday the most important factor in criminal court will be whether or not a citizen has committed a crime, not the designs of power-hungry or deluded men in power, not the color of their skin, their age, or the depth of their terror. Perhaps the difficult road that the Englewood Four walked will help to clear the way for the Fairbanks Four and many more innocent people.

Let us not be discouraged by the scope of injustice, let knowledge of that feed our determination to overturn it. Let us be joyful today for the exoneration of Vincent Thames, Terrill Swift, Harold Richardson and Michael Saunders, and inspired by their success.

One thing they did well was spread the word and gather petition signatures. Help the Fairbanks Four by signing their petition HERE and asking your friends to do the same.

Below is an excerpt of the Innocence Project press release and a few articles on the Englewood Four:

“Saunders, Richardson, Thames and Swift have spent most of their adult lives in prison. They were between the ages of 15 and 18 when they arrested. Based on false confessions and without a shred of physical evidence, they were wrongfully convicted and sentenced to 30-40 years in prison. Their cases, and others in Cook County, reveal a dangerous pattern of injustice based on false confessions. The Innocence Project is calling on Cook County to conduct a review of all cases involving juvenile confessions. In the past four months, ten people have been exonerated through DNA testing in Illinois after being unjustly convicted based on confessions they gave as teenagers.”

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-englewood-four-hearing-20120118,0,6722720.story

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/10069019-418/four-englewood-men-wont-be-retried-for-1994-rape-and-murder.html

Alibis and Witnesses V – Paging Conan

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As near as anyone can tell the whole town of Fairbanks spent part of this night paging Conan Goebel. We do not know how to reach him (maybe someone still has his pager number?) to see if he wanted to make a statement today, but he figures enough into all of the timelines that he is well worth a mention. Beyond that, Conan has two other important roles in this case.
Conan’s pager had the potential to be a really solid alibi, and potentially an alibi for all four. It could have been the only common alibi, since although they spent the critical hours of this night apart, someone was always paging Conan. As far as we have seen, there was never any attempt to track down this data. But his pager would have been an ideal time-stamp on many people’s whereabouts. We have no idea why this information is not available, could be that it was not possible, could be that, like many other pieces of information that contradicted the investigators’ theory, it is either “missing” or was never pursued. Conan did offer the pager information to detectives, and surely the records if they existed could have easily been obtained. His pager is such an important witness an entire future post will be the pager’s timeline.
Aside from his pager Conan, like many others, was interrogated with high-pressure techniques when he was interviewed. As with other interrogations, which you can and should read HERE, Conan was given the good cop/bad cop treatment, and they tried to pressure him into admitting he was an eye-witness to the crime. Again, they gave him two choices:  Admit to being an eye witness; or, risk becoming a suspect. They cited false information, telling him that multiple people had implicated him, that his friends said he was there, that he had details of the crime not yet known (of course, none of this was true) and suggested to him that he had been blacked out (if you can undermine a person’s own memory of their movements it is much easier to persuade them that they were involved).
This technique failed quite terribly on Conan. And it is refreshing, because it worked painfully well on too many people.
Conan’s interview is one of our favorites, because when the investigator said things like, “Your friends think you were there.” He said things like, “I don’t think so.” He was just the rare example of a person who saw right through the manipulation. He asks them repeatedly about the obvious holes in their theory:
  •   How could a person across town have done this?
  •   Why would they ever think people like Marvin or Eugene had done this?
  •   George or Kevin?
  •  Why wasn’t George’s foot hurt when Conan saw him at around 3 am?
  •  Why were all of them behaving normally, in a good mood?
  •  Why weren’t they covered in blood? Why hadn’t they told him or anyone else about a fight?
Conan was a common link between the four because he was friends with each. People always ask why everyone was paging Conan. It seems he was a popular guy, and on a hopping night, everyone just wanted him to come out. Another distinct possibility –  maybe everyone was paging Conan just because he’s kind of a badass.
We will post his interview in its entirety at the bottom, but have to share a few stand-out  quotes here:
Conan:  Well, I can’t say it’s them.
Officer:  His pants pulled down.  Raped, and left in the gutter, okay.  Now, if that was your friend, okay –
Conan:  I still wouldn’t blame these kids for something that I don’t know.  See, there’s – I can’t tell…
Officer:  That’s why you’re not the police and you’re not investigating this –
Conan:  Thank God, ’cause I wouldn’t want to be working your job.  
    
We are glad that the officer explained to Conan that his unwillingness to finger someone for murder without evidence or motivation is why he would not make a good investigator.
After Conan admonishes them for making such a serious accusation with such little evidence, he gives Detective Ring and the other officer the boot. He tells them that they should not be showing up at his house, being disrespectful, and harassing him. It clearly makes them mad, and the officer gives Conan a little speech about owning the streets:
Officer:  Well, let me tell you something here.  These are our streets, okay.
Conan:  Right, man.  They’re my streets too.
Touché. And you know what? They ARE our streets! Where can we get a Team Conan t-shirt?!
Well, beyond his encouraging attitude and very early “Free the Fairbanks Four” work, Conan was an important witness. Conan saw all of the accused this night. His girlfriend was at the house party with Eugene and Kevin, which is why he was being paged from their location. His sister was there as well.  Kevin was dropped off at Conan’s house after the house party, and walked to his mom’s from there. After he got in a fight with his mom, Kevin rode back to Conan’s by a three wheeler and spent the night there.

For the purposes of this transcription “G” will be Conan Goebel, and “O” will be officer. (transcript does not confirm that one of the officers is Aaron Ring. We are operating on a hunch when we assume that it was him)

Goebel:  All right.  So, I gotta go over this all over with you?

Officer:  Yes, just where you were Friday.
G:  11:30, around 11:30, I got dropped off at, um – Over by the 21st Avenue at my cousin’s house (inaudible).  And, uh…

O:  Well, who dropped YOU off?  I think that’s one of the questions.
G:  Chrsty Moses and – I answered this.

O:  I understand.  That’s why I’m taking notes this time.
G:  And Kevin Pease and um…

O:  Okay.

G:  Dropped me off
O:  Was Eugene I the car at that time?

G:  No.

O:  Okay, 11:30?
G:  Yeah, it was probably around 11 – 11:30.

O:  11 – 11:30, okay.  What’s your cousin’s name again?
G:  Samantha.

O:  Samantha, okay.  And how long did you stay there?

G:  Till about 2:30, 2, I think.

O:  Two?  2:30, okay.
G:  Could have been (inaudible).  ‘Cause I know I went to town for a while.  It might have been earlier when they dropped me off the first time, or when they dropped me off the second time (inaudible).
O:  What do you mean, first and second time?
G:  Well, they dropped me off the first time and I stayed there for a while, and then they took off.  Then it’s just those people right there, and then they came back, and, uh, I got – I went – I come to the van with them and we went and picked up Eugene and Nathan.  They were at Eugene’s house.  And then we drove back over there and then they dropped me off right there, but I told them when they were looking for a place to go I (inaudible) take the car back.  So, I was like, well, you can drop me off at Sam’s house.
O:  Well, see, okay.  That’s – That is why he’s confused and why I’m a little confused.  you got dropped off there the first time by who?

G:  By just them people I said.

O:  Okay, what time was that?
G:  About 10:30.

O:  It was those people that dropped you off
G:  It was those – what time was that?  The van (inaudible)

O:  Tanya’s van?  Okay.
Another Officer:  And who was in this van with you?

G:  Tanya, Christy Moses, Allen Sisto.
O:  Okay, and they dropped you off at Sam’s and they went – you don’t – do you know where they went?

G:  They went up to Kevin’s – Kevin Bradley’s.

O:  Kevin Bradley.
G:  There, yes.  And then, they paged me, probably between 12:00 and 2:00 (inaudible) and they were (inaudible) it up there for a while, and I talked to them on the phone a few times and told them (inaudible) but I never (inaudible) so I called the next time around – I don’t know – 2, around 2:30
O:  Well, what’s this 11:30 time that you gave me when you were dropped off there?
G:  That’s when I got dropped off the second time.
O:  Okay, tell me about that – when you got dropped off the second time at 11:30.
G:  Well, after we picked up Nathan and Eugene, we went over – back over there, and I was like, they were going to find a place. Get me on the pager, and I’ll call (inaudible).
O:  YOU didn’t go up to Kevin’s?

G:  huh-uh

O:  Okay.
G:  And I, um, (inaudible) down there and they paged me and I talked to them on the phone.  (inaudible) I think it was like probably around, uh, 2:30 is when I called again.  I called at, um, it was probably like, (inaudible) left.  And I was like, all right.  And I asked, where did they go.  and they went down to Eagles Hall to meet you.  And I was (inaudible) so I hung up the…
O:  You didn’t know they were going to go down to Eagles to meet you?

G:  Nah-huh.

O:  Okay.
G:  Um, I think Eugene paged me before they leave.  I don’t know who – he told Dana – he said we’re going to go meet Conan down at Eagles Hall, but I don’t – I didn’t call him back.  (Inaudible)
O:  Oh, I see

G:  And, uh, he paged me 479-____.

O:  (Inaudible)
G:  And then, uh, walked down to Eagles Hall and, uh, it was about 3:00.  (Inaudible) and um,
O:  Who was there?
G:  I ran into, uh, Eugene, Dana, um, George, Marvin, Harley, uh, all those – all those guys.  And I was talking to them.  And nothing seemed – uh, I mean I was talking to him right there and, uh, he even talked to me and George (inaudible) hadn’t seen him in a while, and there was NOTHING WRONG WITH HIM AT THE TIME (inaudible) and he was in a pretty good mood.  And then, uh, so we was talking for a while, and um, and then, um, then everybody’s taking off – we were pretty faded at that time (inaudible).  And I was like, well, um, (inaudible) I called for a taxi for Dana.  And I, (inaudible) the taxi, (inaudible), Eagles, but they took too long because it was 3:30 when we finally got out of there, and, uh, Eagles – a red taxi rolled up and I went out there and I put here in that one and I sent her
home.  And after that, me, Eugene and Edgar, we proceeded on foot downtown.  And we walked downtown.  And (inaudible) across the street from – over at Elbow Room, and kind of walked in there, and then we turned around and…

O:  Who was in that bar?

G:  Um…
O:  Nobody YOU knew?  Okay.
G:  And, um, I walked (inaudible), and, then, uh, (inaudible) he didn’t last too long.  He was pretty (inaudible).  So then I – we walked over to Alaska Motor Inn.  And chilled there for a while.  And, uh, then, somebody said, (inaudible)

O:  Did YOU see that?
G:  I didn’t see (inaudible).  Eugene (inaudible).  But then I found out Eugene (inaudible) I talked to Harley
O:  When did you hear about that?  Because I don’t think you told me about that before.
G:  Well, see, I walked back over to – walked back over to Shannon’s – Shannon Charlie’s – (Inaudible) and, uh, I just took off over there after (inaudible) and I walked – walked over – back over to 21st.  That was at my cousin’s for a while.

O:  What time did YOU get back over to 21st?
G:  Probably around, uh, (inaudible).  Then, uh, I was – I don’t know – it could have been the next morning or that night that I talked to Harley about mace down there and it was like Eugene – Eugene and George got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn.  That’s what I thought happened.  George got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn.  And I was like, where’s he at?  And they’re like, he got arrested.  And then, after that, the next morning I heard about some kid getting beat up pretty bad and in a coma.
O:  Where’d you hear about that, Conan?
G:  Um, I think that was Louis.  ‘Cause the cops (inaudible).  And I was like – I was like, really.  and they’re like (inaudible).  We got in a fight with some other guy.  And that’s what I thought happened.
O:  That’s pretty weird because…
G:  I don’t know how – I mean Eugene took off and he didn’t say nothing – there was nothing wrong with him – no blood.
O:  Well, let me ask you about this.  You know the Tritts – Cordell and Courtney and their sister – what’s their sister’s name?  I’ve got their names written down.  Any way, Cordell and Courtney and their sister.  And you know…     ?:  (Inaudible)
O:  Antonio Sisto.  And you remember riding in the car with these guys?

G:  On Friday?
O:  Um, Saturday.

G:  Mm

O:  YOU remember talking to Antonio and Courtney?

G:  (Inaudible)
O:  And telling them about this guy that these guys beat down?
G:  No, I didn’t tell them about (inaudible) I asked and they said (inaudible) fight or some…
O:  Well, let me tell you.  I talked to all these people and they had information about you talking about this guy that got beat down.  And you know what they thought, by the way you were talking about it and all the details you had and everything – and this is Saturday where all the details came out. They thought you were there.

G:  That I was there?

O:  When this happened.
G:  I read it in the paper.  It was all in the paper.  I told them – I told that Eugene, Marvin, Kevin, and George are accused of murder.

O:  That wasn’t in the paper Saturday.
G:  Well, it was in the paper or on the new then, because even, uh, Sammie Smith told me heard about it on the news – somebody got coma – in a coma.

O:  What time was that you were (inaudible)?
G:  Then it was probably close to – it was like 12:00 at night.  And, I says to them (inaudible) ’cause I was calling and talking to (inaudible) and telling me they had all those guys in jail, and I was like – I don’t know – I don’t know (inaudible) he died or heard – at first I heard he was in a coma and then I heard he died.  And I was telling (inaudible) that.  And after that I got a ride with Courtney.  And I was – I got in there and I was talking to Antonio, and he was asking me about (inaudible), and I was like, I don’t
know, man.  I heard that they’re being accused for murder or something like that.
O:  Well, I think Antonio knew all about it because I think we’d talked to him by then.  And, uh, and – me and the Tritts are under the impression that you were there and saw this.
G:  Well, I wasn’t even anywhere around them.
O:  Or, they were under the impression maybe even a little more so that you were there and participated in this.

G:  You say that’s what they say?
O:  That’s the impression they got from you.

G:  I don’t think so.  I didn’t tell them anything like that.
O:  But if you were there and saw what happened, that’s another thing.

G:  I didn’t…
O:  Now, you mentioned Jeremy.  And I’ll talk about Jeremy for a minute.  Because Jeremy asked youvabout it, okay?  And you told him, geeze, I don’t know what was up – I was in a blackout.
G:  I was in a blackout?  I wasn’t blacked out.
O:  I know, but that’s what you told Jeremy.  ‘Cause he asked you why were in the fight with these guys and this thing, and you told him you were in a blackout.  Well, you know I’m not lying to you ’cause you told Jeremy that.  You know I’m not lying to you.
G:  I don’t know nothing about that.

O:  And Jeremy told us.

G:  I seen – I recall…
O:  ‘Cause he’s concerned about you and wanting to know if maybe you were just a witness to this happening or you were a participant.
G:  I wasn’t a participant or a witness.  I didn’t – I didn’t even get down there until…
O:  Why’d YOU tell Jeremy you were in a blackout then?

G:  I never told him I was in a blackout.
O:  Well, I don’t think he made it up.  He doesn’t have anything against you.
G:  Well, I know he don’t have anything against me.  There’s no reason, ’cause I never told him I was in a blackout.
O:  You see how this all looks?  The Tritts thinking – or thinking you’re talking like you were there and you participated.  Jeremy’s asking you a couple of times about the fight you were in and you…
G:  I wasn’t even in a fight.  I didn’t tell him.  I said, I don’t know what happened.  They’re getting accused for beating somebody up.
O:  You told him you didn’t know because you were in a blackout, okay?
G:  I didn’t know because…

O:  See, Conan, you’re not – we’re not arresting you here.
G:  But I ain’t got nothing – I wasn’t even around then.  I didn’t even hear what happened until like the next day about this kid being comatose…
O:  We’re  – we’re kind of concerned as to whether you want to be a witness or not, or whether you want to…

G:  Hey, if I seen it, man, I would tell you guys what happened.
O:  Well, let’s talk about that for a minute.
G:  But the thing is, I wasn’t even in the neighborhood that it happened in.  And that’s what I…
O:  Were you in Marvin’s car at all?
G:  Naw-huh.  I never even noticed Marvin’s car that night.  I never even rode in the car at all from Eagles
Hall.

O:  Well, is there any reason why YOUR fingerprints would be in Marvin’s car?
G:  Marvin’s car?

O:  HIS blue car?
G:  There’s no reason my fingerprints would be in there.  (Inaudible) I mean, I’ve rode in there before, but I didn’t ride in there Friday night.  I don’t even think they could be in there ’cause I haven’t rode in there for a while.
O:  Okay, well, no reason – in the back seat area – you weren’t in the backseat area of that car?
G:  (Inaudible)

O:  Did YOU go to the Eagles Hall at all?

G:  Yes.

O:  How?

G:  Walked.
O:  What time did YOU leave?

G:  Around 3:30.

O:  3:30?  What time did you go to (inaudible)?
G:  Around 3:00.  I ran into Dana (inaudible).

O:  Where were you?  Dana had been looking for you.
G:  I was at my cousin’s house (inaudible).
O:  You were there that whole time?  You didn’t leave there then?

G:  No

O:  All right.
G:  (Inaudible) Went in.  I talked to him on the phone a bunch of times.
O:  Why didn’t you go to the Eagles Hall with (inaudible)
G:  Because I didn’t know there was nothing going on down there.

O:  (Inaudible)
G:  (Inaudible) because I talked to them on the phone, and it was like come on, it’s like, we’re going to Eagles Hall, and then I found out (inaudible)
O:  Were they – were they at Eagles Hall when you talked to Joey?
G:  No, Joey was up at Kevin’s and he said they just left.
O:  Oh, okay.  Well, let me – let me clue YOU in there.  Joey drove them to Eagles Hall.
G:  Oh, really?
O:  Oh really.  Oh really.  So, see, we’re having a problem here.  ‘Cause Joey drove them. He borrowed Kevin’s car.  Kevin didn’t want to go and Joey drove ’em.
G:  Well, (inaudible) ’cause he went to Eagles Hall (inaudible) that’s why he called.  ‘Cause I was like how long ago.  He was like, not too long ago.  They left when (inaudible)
O:  And what time was that?

G:  Uh, (inaudible) about (inaudible).
O:  Uh-huh, but you’re telling me Joey was telling you this.  And I’m telling you Joey drove.
G:  I don’t know who drove.  I just talked to Joey – I don’t remember what time it was.  It was around 2:00, 2:30, somewhere around…

O:  Well, maybe Joey had driven and come back?
G:  (Inaudible) that’s what I (inaudible)
O:  So maybe it was around 1:30 or earlier than that that HE drove them in, huh?

G:  Huh
O:  Maybe it was around 1:30 or earlier than that that he drove them in?
G:  Could be, I don’t know.  I didn’t talk to him ’till late.

O:  Well, you told me that…
G:  I don’t know.  I don’t recall.  I could check my pager was.

O:  You got it?

G:  No
O:  You haven’t?

G:  No, that was Friday.  All those pages are erased.  I don’t know (inaudible)
O:  Well, see what I’m saying?  I’m a little bit confused about what you’re telling me.  Either Joey had already come and come back, which means it was quite – quite a while ago that you’d taken to the Eagles, because they got – he was –

G:  I don’t remember the time, though, man, I mean…
O:  Well, you might be right – you might be right.  ‘Cause I think your sister saw him (inaudible) time, so you might be right. You might have talked to Joey and he’d already gone and come back.
G:  I don’t, I don’t, don’t know.  I talked to Joey Shank.  I don’t know what time it was.  It could a been around 2:30.  But, then I remember I walked down there and…
O:  Between 1:15 and 2:15, you were where?

G:  I was over at Sam’s (inaudible).
O:  And you were there from 11:30 until –
G:  Probably about 11:30, 12:00.  I remember Darrel Calling from the car and (inaudible).  But I was sitting there ’till like probably 2:30 or later.  I don’t know.

O:  (Inaudible) around
G:  Because I said I was at the Eagles Hall – I don’t even know what time I was there.  I said I was there when everybody was leaving.  I was like one of the last people at Eagles Hall.
O:  Well, there’s no one (inaudible).  When did YOU leave there?

G:  Probably like 2:30.
O:  What did you do there?

G:  I just sat there talking to my  cous (inaudible).
O:  Okay, well I’ll give them a call and we’ll figure it out.  In fact, I can give them a call here in just a minute.
G:  And then I sat there for a while, and then I talked to Joey on the phone.  I don’t remember what time it was.  He says, I (inaudible) – when I talked to him last time, I got to – I got to Eagles Hall and everybody was leaving.  But I don’t know what time it was.  (Inaudible) it was around 3:30 when everybody was taking off (inaudible).
O:  Well, that’s what your sister and them’s saying.  But I don’t know if their times are right.
Other O:  They locked the doors between 3:00 and 3:30.

O:  Yeah, THEY had the doors closed.
G:  Because we were the last people there.

O:  Because the thing was over at 3:00.
G:  Yeah, it was probably around then.

O:  You left, um…
G:  But it took a while for everybody to get out, because everybody’s drunk.
O:  Yeah, everybody was out by 3:20.

G:  There were a lot of people.
O:  So, you  went from 21st Avenue over to the Eagles Hall?

G:  Yeah.
O:  And you got there, people were leaving?

G:  Uh-huh.  People were leaving.
O:  You see, the problem I’m having here is it’s sounding to me like people are trying to back step and figure out things to match up with other people’s stories and it’s starting to sound like a big mess.
G:  I don’t – I don’t know.  I…
O:  And the way you talked to in front of the Tritts and Antonio, they were thinking you were there when this happened.

G:  I wasn’t even there.  How can they say that?  I told them that…
O:  Well, good point.  Because of the detail you had.  And I would like to know if one of these guys talked to you and told you what happened, or if you were there?
G:  No.  Somebody’s (inaudible)

O:  Which one of these guys talked to you?

G:  Harley told me…
O:  No.  Which one of these guys that were in the fight told you about it?

G:  Nobody told me anything.
O:  (Inaudible) You’re not in trouble here.  We’re  not here trying to hassle…
G:  Look!  I’m basing it all on the times you said.  Eagles Hall – we left – a lot of people left Eagles Hall.
O:  Look, here’s the problem.  You call and you talk to Joey.  Well, Joey thought you dropped these people off, right?  And did some things in town and come back up to the hill.  Right.  (Inaudible) Well, that doesn’t match up with your sister’s (inaudible), who’s called by Kevin and told to adjust her time a little bit.

O:  Well,
G:  I don’t think that (inaudible) happened was Eugene and George got in a fight.  It’s nothing that Eugene and George got in a fight was a whole different fight.
O:  NO!  He did!  Now, I can play a part of the tape for your sister with Eugene saying how many times he kicked the guy.  I just asked him how many times you kick him…
G:  (Inaudible).  How could Kevin do it, when it happened over there?  Kevin was at my house and he had to go to his house.

O:  No, he wasn’t at his house.
G:  He was at my house and then he went to his house and got in a fight with his mom.
O:  He got in a fight with his mom later.

G:  All right.
O:  Okay, and the way it happened, is ’cause all these guys have lied about (inaudible) and what time it was and all that, okay.
G:  I don’t even know where they were.  Because I didn’t see these people until 3:00 – when I first got down to Eagles Hall and I talked with them.  And if they would have got in a fight, they would have told me (inaudible) because –
O:  Right.  Because that’s what we figured.  We figured they told you about it –
G:  (Inaudible)

O:  And that’s why we knew so much information to talk with Antonio…
G:  No, somebody’s telling you…

O:  (Inaudible)
G:  Um, like, I think it’s Harley, or one of them, told me that he got (inaudible) so bad that they had to cut open (inaudible).  So, well…

O:  How would he know that?
G:  I don’t know, man.  Lewis or somebody told me – I don’t know.  But I was like, well, I was like, how could these guys – these guys wouldn’t (inaudible)…
O:  Well, they certainly did.  They certainly did.
G:  Well, I think Eugene got in a fight at Alaska Motor Inn.  That’s what happened.
O:  And what, a space man killed this boy?

G:  Huh?
O:  A guy from outer space killed this boy downtown?
G:  I don’t know, man, there’s a lot of people downtown that night.  You gotta’ understand there were other people downtown on Friday night.
O:  But you see, none of them are admitting to doing it.  And Eugene and George are, okay.  That’s the problem we have, okay.

G:  Well, how could – how could Kevin do it when he was sitting here and –
O:  He wasn’t here.

G:  He was here.  He got dropped off at my house.

O:  Well…
G:  He got dropped off at my house.
O:  And then he left.  He didn’t even come in inside.  Then he came back on his three-wheeler to your house.

G:  He left his house.  How could he –

O:  ‘Cause he actually went downtown.  He didn’t –
G:  His house is that way, unless he got beat up that way.  Then (inaudible) he would walk that way.
O:  Well, I’M not going to argue with you.  ‘Cause I know where Kevin was and I know what time he had a fight with his mom.
G:  Well, yeah, it’s like.  Not too (inaudible).  ‘Cause after he got in a fight with his mom he came back over here on the three-wheeler and then passed out on the floor.
O:  Except for (inaudible) – he stopped by the Alaska Motor Inn (inaudible).
G:  He wasn’t even over there.  I went over there.  I never seen him over there the whole time.  I stopped –
O:  So, you really don’t know what time he was doing anything, do you?

G:  I stopped –
O:  Except what time he got here last.

G:  I don’t know.  It was probably about – I don’t know
O:  Right.

G:  I just heard –
O:  Absolutely.  So, you don’t know where any of these guys were when this boy was killed.
G:  (Inaudible) I seen Eugene at 3:00 down at –
O:  That’s not when the boy was killed.  You don’t know when these guys were killed – or where they were when this boy was killed?

G:  Uh-huh.  Well, I don’t know where –
O:  So don’t try to figure it out, okay.  We just need to know –
G:  I – I don’t see how they could do this, man.

O:  WE just need to know what you know.
G:  ‘Cause if they did, they would have told me about it.  They would have told me they got into a fight. That’s the thing.  And, George – I seen George and his foot – was nothing wrong with his foot.There’s nothing wrong –
O:  If it was your brother or sister laying face down and had this done to ’em, you wouldn’t be talking like that, okay.

G:  Yeah, but it wasn’t.  That’s the thing.

O:  That’s right.  It wasn’t.
G:  But it ain’t.

O:  This was a 15 year old boy…

G:  I don’t pretend things that never happened –
O:  This was a 15 year old boy.  This is a 15 year old boy –

G:  I know it’s a 15 year old boy.
O:  That got his head beat in.

G:  Well, I can’t say it’s them.
O:  His pants pulled down.  Raped, and left in the gutter, okay.  Now, if that was your friend, okay –
G:  (Inaudible) problem, but it wouldn’t…

O:  It would be –
G:  I still wouldn’t blame these kids for something that I don’t know.  See, there’s – I can’t tell…
O:  That’s why you’re not the police and you’re not investigating this –
G:  Thank God, ’cause I wouldn’t want to be working your job.

O:  Okay, that’s why…
G:  (Inaudible) but I –

Other O:  I don’t understand your point.  That’s exactly why what?
G:  I don’t know.  You said that’s the law.  Whatever, man.  I don’t need this.  You all coming in here and harassing me in my own home.  I wasn’t even with them; I was –
O:  We’re not harassing you.  What we’re doing is we’re just (inaudible) this right here in your home.
G:  Well this is my home.

O:  So you can disrespect whoever you want?
G:  In my home, yes.  This is my home.  This is my house, man.  I don’t need peole coming up in my house giving me shit (inaudible) –

O:  Well, let me tell you something here.  These are our streets, okay.
G:  Right, man.  They’re my streets too.

O:  Just remember that, okay.
G:  I don’t remember nothing.  (Inaudible) on the streets.  I live on the streets more than you do.
O:  Remember that.
G:  And, the thing is that I think if they did it, they would have told me about it.  That’s all I’m saying
O:  Maybe they’re not good friends with you.  Maybe they –
G:  Nah, man, these are my best friends.  Ask the school – go to (Inaudible) Roberts.  Ask them how close they are to me.  Ask them how close these guys are.  I mean, these are all my boys.  Really close friends.  And that’s the thing –

O:  No, I have no idea.  I don’t think so.  I don’t think so.
(TAPE OFF)

Alibis and Witnesses IV – Alibis Interrogated

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If Marvin had owned a mini-van, there would probably be a “Fairbanks Eleven.” God save anyone who knew him at all if he had owned a bus, there could be an entire tribe in prison.  The next posts will feature some of the alibis and witnesses that appear to have barely escaped arrest for the crime as well. The number of people accused of involvement would have never been able to squeeze in the vehicle, and although some had their fingerprints, etc. submitted, none were arrested or prosecuted. They can be thankful for their own strength of mind and Marvin’s small car!

In all seriousness, there are several witnesses who were brought in because they were named as alibis, or who initiated contact with the police because they had been with one of the four that night. But the interviews rapidly devolved into something that reads a lot more like an interrogation. This post features one of those interviews.

These people were lied to. The police are allowed to lie. It is completely legal and standard practice. These young people were not aware of that, and were understandably baffled. These lies read a lot more like thinly veiled threats. The interrogators attempted to threaten anf bully these people into changing their stories with a common interrogation technique. The technique is, in its simplest form, just “good cop, bad cop.” We all know that term, but most of us do not appreciate how psychologically unraveling it can be. With this technique police officers offer the person being interrogated two options. Both are bad, but one is clearly better. One is a threat -“you will be accused of murder.” The other is an offer of a way out of that -” or maybe you were just a witness.”

For example, when they interrogated George they told him for hours that continuing to stick with his story (the truth) was completely unacceptable. That he had to either admit to playing a smaller role in the beating, or else keep up his story, in which case they would assume he was a ring leader of a brutal sexual assault and beating. It seems incomprehensible to most people that a normal person would pick between two lies, but the reality is that the situation is terrifying. People with a lot of power are telling you that you only have two choices. Experts say that many people give in out of terror and anxiety, and simply pick the lesser of two evils – anything to make the experience end.

Some people are very strong, very sure of themselves. These people often see right through the tactic. Others are weaker and cave immediately. Most of us are likely somewhere right in the middle, and as such are potentially vulnerable to this tactic.

In the case of these witnesses, the police attempted to give them the following choices: agree that you were present, and that you were an eye-witness to the crime (of course, they cite made-up evidence and “proof” that this is the case) or we might have to consider you a participant. Essentially, which were you? An eyewitness or a murderer?

This approach is most successful on people who have any doubt about their whereabouts or gaps in their memory as they can often be led to believe the scenario. (More on that HERE) It is actually surprising that they were not successful in creating an eye-witness with this tactic, but thankfully, they were not. Still, their treatment of these people who were simply doing their best to give their whereabouts that night is astonishing.

Race is a contentious issue in this case, but having read all of the police interviews, we can say this: there were many Native people interviewed, and there were many white people interviewed. Only Native people were subjected to this treatment. Racism is not something that can be often proven – unlike murder, it leaves no physical evidence. But there is more circumstantial evidence of these investigators being racists than there was circumstantial evidence of the Fairbanks Four being guilty of the crime.  Yet, those four sit in jail, the investigators sit behind the desks they were promoted to, and the people they bullied and berated sit with the memory of this kind of treatment. Some people recommend that we shy away from saying that, that playing the “race card” is unfair. But sometimes in life as in poker you have no choice but to play with that hand that you were dealt, and in this case the circumstantial evidence of racism is in our opinion overwhelming. Readers will have to judge for themselves.

Vernon Roberts. When Vernon Roberts was interviewed by the police he told them simply that he was drinking that night at George and Crystal’s apartment, that he did not remember the specific time that things happened, but said that the order of events was that they drank at the apartment, that they then walked from George’s apartment to downtown, that the group spent time at the reception, and that he and George parted company in front of Tommy’s Elbow Room (also known as Cabaret).

He confirms that the group of people outlined in George’s timeline. He says that his girlfriend thought George was about to get in a fight in front of Elbow Room, that he left and returned to George and Crystal’s apartment.We know the times of these events through the testimony of people who were keeping track of the time (see George’s timeline HERE). There is no question that his intoxication makes him a somewhat unreliable alibi. But there is much to be learned about the case from the way he was interrogated.

Vernon’s interview rapidly devolved into an interrogation-like situation, with officers Aaron Ring and Jim Grier tag-team questioning him for a long period of time. When he concedes that he was drunk and that it is possible that he may not remember the entire night they begin to use the same interrogation techniques on him as they had on the four. They tell him some severe lies: they say that George sent them to talk to him, that George and Eugene indicated he knew who was responsible for the sexual assault, that coming forward as an eyewitness would help George, and insinuate that he will be in trouble if he does not come forward with the story they are supplying. NONE of this is true. They accuse him of being in the car, of sitting in the middle seat, of being either a participant or a witness. So, his bad cop, good cop choices are to either admit to being an eye-witness, thereby helping his friend and keeping himself out of trouble, or to take his chances on being investigated as a participant.

Vernon made a choice after being exposed to this technique for a long time in the interview that probably kept him from being either pressured into some kind of false statement or even falsely imprisoned for murder as well – he told them that he wanted to speak to his father, and when they pressured him to stay, he insisted.

A long excerpt of his interview is below. In time we hope to find a way to post these thousands of pages of documents in their entirety to link to (so if anyone knows how to do that, volunteer). Vernon’s experience is simply best told through the police transcript, and we wanted to include it. Prior to the segment here Vernon outlines his night over and over. Shortly after the ending of this segment there is a prolonged period of time where Vernon says he wants to speak to his father, the interrogators encourage him to wait, and eventually his insists and leaves. Vernon’s experience is simply best told through the police transcript, and we wanted to include it.

Interview conducted with Vernon Roberts. Interview conducted by Detective Aaron Ring and Investigator Jim Geier. For the purposes of this transcription “R” will indicate the voice of Vernon Roberts, “G” will indicate the voice of Investigator Geier, and “X” will indicate the voice of Detective Aaron Ring.

X:  I mean I suppose it’s even possible could YOU have been in the car with these GUYS when this happened?
R:  No, I don’t think so.  I think I was downtown most of the night.  Actually all the night.
X:  I mean you…

R:  Until I came over here
X:  Because we have some information that there was maybe even another person with these four guys.
R:  Um

X:  When this happened.

R:  I don’t know
X:  And I was wondering if maybe that could’ve been you.  Maybe you stayed in the car or something when this happened.  is that a possibility?
R:  Nah, cause if this shit would a happened in front of me, man, I would’ve stopped, I’d put a stop to it
X:  Oh, unless you had too much to drink and you were just sitting there and these guys were, I mean they’re out of the car and all of a sudden it happens and it’s too late for you to do anything, ya know, this probably only took a few seconds
R:  I don’t remember, I shouldn’t, I honestly don’t know.
X:  Well, ya know, I , I don’t like keeping things from ya here. And, and I’ve talked to George and George has admitted what his involvement in this is

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, and uh, and I asked who else I can talk to about this, and he told me you, okay you’re not under arrest here or anything, cause I, I don’t think that uh anyone’s told us that he was involved in kicking this guy or anything, but the information we have is maybe you have some information about it, or maybe YOU were even in the car, okay.  So that’s what I’m looking at.
R:  Well, like I said, I have no informatio
X:  Did you have a car that, did you have a car that night?

R:  No, I was walking.
X:  Okay, well that leads me back to the night there at the Eagles and I wanta, I wanta be serious with you here, okay.  I don’t want you to cause a problem for yourself by, by trying maybe to keep things from us.

R:  Oh I’m not, I, that, I’m being honest, honest with you guys
X:  Cause the most important, the most important thing that you can do now is be completely truthful in this thing.

R:  That’s what I’m doing
X:  And I think maybe you’re afraid that you don’t wanta get your friends in any deeper trouble, let me tell you this, George can’t be in any deeper trouble, he can’t be in any deeper trouble.  He’s told us that he did this, okay.  He’s told us that he did this, Eugene told us that he did this, okay.  I mean it goes all the way around.

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And they’ve already told, so any, any information that you have isn’t gonna hurt George, I mean it’s not.  We just wanta verify some things that he’s told us about his limited involvement and he said, these other guys were more involved than he was and that he just kicked this guys a couple of times, he didn’t have anything to do with sexually assaulting this guy

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And I asked him well how can I verify that and how can I prove what your involvement is and he tells me I should come see you, okay.  So what does that leave me to believe is that you were either there or he told you about it, and I’m, I’m kinda curious as to which it was.
R:  I don’t even know.

X:  Cause he, okay
R:  I’m telling you guys the honest truth, I mean you all just

X:  I know
R:  Act like I’m fucking lying to you all, but

X:  Well no, no

R:  Shit
X:  No, I don’t think it’s, I wouldn’t call it that

R:  Yeah, but that’s what your saying
X:  Vernon, well, well here’s the
R:  Be, be truthful, you keep saying, telling me to be truthful, and then I am…
X:  Here’s the point, Vernon

R:  And your all just, saying I’m a liar or something
X:  If we came, if we came over here and you said right away, the first, first thing we sit down with you and say, okay, I know all about this, here’s what George did, ya know, here’s, here’s the whole thing, I would think well geeze, this is kinda strange, this is George’s friend, he shouldn’t tell us this all that that quickly ya know.  So I know people cover for their friends, I, I, ya know, I don’t live in a dream world, I know people try and keep their involvement limited
R:  I ain’t covering for nobody, I’m just telling you guys what I know
X:  Well, here’s another thing that I’m concerned with Vernon, is that if you were in the car, that might be a reason you might not wanta talk about it.  Cause You would think you would be in trouble, okay.
R:  Like I say, I don’t even know if I was in the car
X:  Vernon, here’s the thing, if you didn’t kick this, this boy, if you didn’t have anything to do with that, if you didn’t hit him, then you’re not in trouble, okay

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  But, but if you’re a witness to it, we need, we need to talk seriously about it, okay.  If you witnessed it happen, then WE need to talk about it.
R:  I don’t know if I did or not, like I told ya, I blacked out, when I drink, when I drink
X:  Do you remember driving around with the four of them?
R:  (Inaudible) No, I don’t even know if I was, I don’t think I was either
X:  Well you, what does Marvin drive, you know what Marvin drives, right?
R:  I don’t know, I just, I don’t know, didn’t even see him that night and if I did, I was blacked out cause I don’t remember seeing him, Eugene, or Kevin.
X:  People black out when they pass out and fall down on the ground.  You were functional. You were walking around, you made it back over here, you made it back over to Chrystal’s
R:  I, I do that lots, when I’m blacked out
X:  And here’s, here’s the thing, YOU left, from Chrystal’s with George, and you ended back up over at Chrystal’s.

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, and in between there, something happens, okay.  That’s all we’re trying to get at, okay.
R:  I know, I wouldn’t mind knowing what the hell happened too.

X:  Okay
R:  But it’s like I said, I blacked out from drinking so much
X:  Okay, but these, these boys, who have told us that they done this, when we asked them about
you, they said well, he probably knows, but I, ya know, they don’t, I don’t think any of them said that Vernon kicked anybody, did they?

Geier:  No, no involvement, but he knows about it.
X:  I mean that’s so, I’m here trying to verify yourfriends story, okay.  That’s, that’s all
R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And if you wanta listen to the tape where George says that, I’ll play it for you, okay.  Cause he showed up at the hospital, thinking he broke his foot on this guy

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And, and wanted some help over there, and, and he talked pretty honestly about it, okay.  He talked pretty honestly and I’m not psychic, I’m here to talk to you cause he sent me over here, okay.  And uh, I’m sorry it took me ya know, so long to get over here to see ya, but, and then I hear more and more, and your names involved a little more and then, and uh, based on what Eugene and George have had to say, we’re here trying to find out if, if you wanta help us or not, okay.  If you wanta help us.  And I suppose that people say, well he was in the car too, he’s just as guilty, but that’s not necessarily so.

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, that’s not necessarily the truth.  The extent of your involvement is what we’re looking at and whether you actually got out and took anything from this guy, or you hit him, or kicked him or, or, or sexually assaulted him, okay.  And whoever’s responsible for sexually assaulting this kid, that’s one thing that George and Eugene really didn’t wanta talk about.

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, I don’t know if they’re involved in that or not, whether they put something, an object up this guy or not.    I don’t know.  I don’t know if it’s Kevin, ya know, I don’t really know for sure.  I, I wouldn’t bet that it would be George.
R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Or Eugene, I wouldn’t bet that it be either of those guys.  Uh, but they sent me over to talk to you, maybe that’s hard, them putting this off on you to be the one to tell, ya know?  But, and then maybe that’s not fair, but that’s just the way it is, okay.  So I think maybe we need to go down and, and talk about this seriously and figure it out.  And uh, like I said you’re not under arrest.  We’re, we just wanta get this story from you.

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And you can come back or, or whatever.

R:  I basically told you what I know
X:  Well you said you blacked out

R:  Yes
X:  You could’ve been in the car, but blacked out.

R:  I blacked out

X:  And, how, how old are you?
R:  Twenty two
X:  Okay, I’ve been drinking since I was nineteen, drinking age at nineteen

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, I know when YOU drink a lot, sometimes things are fuzzy, ya know, your memory’s fuzzy, but you don’t forget everything

R:  I do     X:  Okay.
R:  I, that happened to me lots of times before.  I remember some of the people telling me, oh you remember doing this and that, and

X:  Well that’s
R:  Man you were so funny that night, and I’d be like no, and then they’d be all like, I was blacked out
X:  That’s, that’s little things, Vernon, that’s, that’s little funny things that you do, but having some guys hop out of a car and, and stomp a guy, and beat a guy, is probably not something that  happens a lot.  And that’s probably something that would stick out in your mind.
R:  If, if I seen that, I mean I wouldn’t lie about it.  I’d tell you, and if I seen it or not
X:  Well, except for there’s a problem where you’re afraid of maybe being in trouble, or, or George is gonna get in more trouble if he’s the guy that sexually assaulted this boy or something.  I don’t know. There’s a lot of reasons why you wouldn’t wanta tell us that right away, and I understand that.  And I don’t hold that against you.  I don’t hold that against you at all.  But George sent us here to get the story from ya, and that’s why we’re here.  It’s as simple as that, okay.  You, you’re, you’re the guy that can tell us and I know it’s hard, I know it’s a shame that he had to put the rest of that off on you, but he told us, he did it.  He told us what he did

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  And uh, I just need to verify that with you, verify who else was involved and verify what your involvement is, they, they don’t say you kicked him, they don’t say you hit him.  If that’s true,that’s fine.     

R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)
X:  Okay, but that doesn’t excuse you from being a witness, you still have to be a witness, okay.  And that’s, that’s all there is to it, okay.  Now, let’s just please get past this a little bit, and tell us straight about it, and if you wanta go down to the police station
R:  I am talking straight about it
X:  And make a statement about it, well we can do that, okay.  But I, I wanta, I want the whole story, ya know.  I realize parts of it are gonna be fuzzy, and parts of it you aren’t gonna remember, but the whole thing is not anything that you’d forget, okay.  And if its, if there’s other people involved that we don’t know, and that you know, we need to talk about that too, okay.  Cause I wanta make sure we have all the facts, and I ya know, if they’re friends of yours that are involved, well we still need to talk about that.  Cause just the indication I get from George, I mean he says, ya know, go talk to Vernon, Vernon will be able to tell ya, Vernon will be able to tell you what happened, that leads me to believe that you were there, okay.  And there’s some talk from some other people about a fifth guy
being in the car, okay.  Well, like we say, we’re not psychic, we’re just, we’re just trying to get to the truth.  And from what I hear from these guys, it doesn’t sound like you assaulted anybody.
R:  Uh-huh (affirmative)

X:  It really doesn’t, it really doesn’t
R:  I honestly don’t know.  I mean I’m telling the truth
X:  May, maybe we, maybe we can take a quick drive up to Ninth and Barnette and maybe that will help you remember.

G:  Do you mind?

R:  I don’t mind.
X:  Sure, let’s take a quick drive up there.

R:  I don’t remember anything though, sorry.